6 ms·

I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. S

I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. So many bridges. So many wind turbines. It is visibly a country on the move, a country that believes in itself and its ability to do things. The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse.

threethirtytwo 5mo ago
A Chinese person who was here in the US as a foreign student once commented to me that he was so surprised that the United States was like the country side. He didn’t realize how rural the country was. This was at UCLA which is in LA which is the second biggest city in the US.
- leereeves 5mo ago
  Presumably referring to population density? People like the low density in California.
- klodolph 5mo ago
  People are also surprised how rural much of China is.
  - jimbob45 5mo ago
    https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png Posting the map in case anyone hasn’t seen it.
    - monocasa 5mo ago
      To be fair, six percent is still 84 million people.
    - 10xDev 5mo ago
      Russia, US, Australia, Canada are all like this. Probably many more. The world is a very small place when you look at where most people actually live.
- phainopepla2 5mo ago
  West LA isn't like a Chinese city, but no one in their right mind would call UCLA rural
- testing22321 5mo ago
  When friends visited NYC and we drove around a bit they said “it’s like everything is half finished”
  - cucumber3732842 5mo ago
    Did he ask about all the bricked up windows in London? You get what you incentivize.
  - titanomachy 5mo ago
    Is that just because of the scaffolding on everything? IIRC that's due to some legal or tax bullshit.
- HerbManic 5mo ago
  I get the same thing here is Australia. There is a lot of space with little going on. I mean we have the Nullarbor plain. The name literally means 'No Trees', and it is very fitting. If you ever end up there... I hope you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain
fusslo 5mo ago
I have two chinese-born coworkers (who spent 20-30 years here in the us) in the same room. When we talk about china's expansion, I am always jealous of the public projects, infrastructure, housing, etc. They always point out the huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills. They say they're worried when the building stops. Even more people will be out of jobs. And when the nation ages all they built will be used and maintained by fewer people I've never been to china so it's interesting perspective from people with family there and go back 2-3 times a year
- sureshv 5mo ago
  I always take these views with a grain of salt, many immigrant's view of their home country is ossified at the time of emigration.
  - simonask 5mo ago
    In the same vein, it’s reasonable to take a foreigner’s view with a grain of salt. For all its impressive progress, China doesn’t show off its problems. The “West” had the same problem many times during the first Cold War, where things in the Soviet Union seemed really great from the outside. Only after the collapse did the truth become clear. Now, I don’t think China is even remotely similar, but never forget that it is not a free society.
    - WarmWash 5mo ago
      In the US it's practically a right of passage to be a young adult and very vocally hate the country, hate the government. In China you don't have a life in front of you if you do that.
      - joe_mamba 5mo ago
        >In the US it's practically a right of passage to be a young adult and very vocally hate the country, hate the government. Well, unless ICE murders you at a protest for expressing your hate of the government's actions. >In China you don't have a life in front of you if you do that. That's very much not true. China isn't North Korea like Westerners imagine. Unless you riot, take to the streets, or become a big agitator or dissident, Chinese government and media actually does allow some controlled escape valves for regular people to vent about problems, no issue with that. This isn't Stalin's reign of terror. You'll only get disappeared if you end up becoming a big fish to threaten the CCP, like Jack Ma, but otherwise the CCP don't end disappearing every schmuck who complains about the government. You might not know this, but as a nation, you don't get very far economically, academically and technologically in the long run by consonantly oppressing your people under a culture of permanent fear of their government. You can't bleed a stone. And China got where it is, due to its successful policies from the last half-century that brought prosperity and lifted millions of of poverty, it's government has earned a certain level of "buy-in" from the majority of the population, meaning the people are more likely to be cooperative and work with the totalitarian government towards a common set of mutually beneficial goals, rather than wasting their energy trying to mass emigrate out of the country or to fight for democracy. And that's what so dangerous about this, because unlike the USSR who served in the west as THE model of inevitable failure for such systems, China found a successful form of totalitarian governance, that some western governments are now trying to copy when they saw how effective it is.
aworks 5mo ago
I traveled to Wuhan twice a year for business for much of the last decade (until the pandemic). China was a growing country that clearly knew how to build infrastructure. In Wuhan, they built an entire development intended to employ 100,000 engineers (Huawei + our US company's 50). They built a subway system in a decade that's bigger than New York City's. I took the high-speed rail to Beijing and it was superb. They replaced an old, shabby international airport terminal with a new one with the widest concourse I've ever seen. They subsidized regular flights between Wuhan and San Francisco on China Southern airlines. The Hyatt Regency there was one of my favorite hotels I've ever stayed in (cheap and high quality). In a big commerical district, they had the largest screen I've ever seen that had a Blue Screen of Death :-) Dazzling yet I'm not bullish on China due to its demographics, among many other reasons.
- twilo 5mo ago
  What’s wrong with their demographics? Population decline?
  - HerbManic 5mo ago
    It has been called the 4-2-1 problem. 4 people had 2 kids. Those 2 kids had 1 of their own. This means there ends up with a more elderly people with far fewer young to support them. That doesn't look like a recipe for social stability. This is why they are going in so hard on automation nowadays, they are trying to do what Japan attempted in the 90s/2000s but hopefully with more success. This was originally a side effect of the One child policy, but now it is continued due to difficult living situations. This is not a uniquely China issue. https://alexatsintolas.weebly.com/the-4-2-1-problem.html https://alexatsintolas.weebly.com/the-4-2-1-problem.html
    - segmondy 5mo ago
      robots
    - deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
badpun 5mo ago
I'd say it's a country that builds a ton of infrastructure, at the expense of living standards of common people. The money from infra has to come from anywhere, and an all-powerful central government can just redirect the stream from consumer spending into building out infrastructure. Whether Chinese are happy about it, you'd have to ask them.
- tartoran 5mo ago
  The US is not building infrastructure at the expense of living standard of common people. Ask Americans if they're happy about it.
10xDev 5mo ago
On the move to where? Massive unemployment amongst youth and population collapse is on its way. You are projecting a fantasy.
thisisit 5mo ago
Whenever the topic of Chinese infrastructure comes up I am reminded of a 2016 Wired documentary about Shenzhen. It was positive portrayal of hacker culture in Shenzhen. But one thing really stood out to me. They had demarcation line separating the city and “urban village”. It looked like lots of poor people lived in the urban village. The guide mentioned that the urban village will be torn down completely in 3 months to expand the city and people had to move. It sounded like gentrification. The host was impressed by the efficiency. But it made me question how many countries can actually be that “efficiency” because matters of uprooting large swath of population will take years not months and run into significant legal challenges as well. To be clear use of eminent domain and gentrification happens even in US but I doubt it can be as “efficient” as a technocratic government. It’s not a knock on Chinese government, just something I always wonder.
- esperent 5mo ago
  Tearing down a slum is not gentrification. Gentrification is when existing communities that used to have decent if basic living situations get gradually priced out of an area as richer people and their expensive amenities move in. Gradually, as house prices go up and food gets more expensive, people sell and move. It's a slow, mostly voluntary thing, or at least, driven by market forces rather than official mandates. Tearing down a slum is a much more disruptive thing that instantly displaces a entire community. Although it's unclear what happened to that community in this case and I can't find anything clear about it online (lots of clearly biased articles for one side or the other though).

threethirtytwo 5mo ago

A Chinese person who was here in the US as a foreign student once commented to me that he was so surprised that the United States was like the country side. He didn’t realize how rural the country was. This was at UCLA which is in LA which is the second biggest city in the US.

leereeves 5mo ago
Presumably referring to population density? People like the low density in California.
klodolph 5mo ago
People are also surprised how rural much of China is.
- jimbob45 5mo ago
  https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png Posting the map in case anyone hasn’t seen it.
  - monocasa 5mo ago
    To be fair, six percent is still 84 million people.
  - 10xDev 5mo ago
    Russia, US, Australia, Canada are all like this. Probably many more. The world is a very small place when you look at where most people actually live.
phainopepla2 5mo ago
West LA isn't like a Chinese city, but no one in their right mind would call UCLA rural
testing22321 5mo ago
When friends visited NYC and we drove around a bit they said “it’s like everything is half finished”
- cucumber3732842 5mo ago
  Did he ask about all the bricked up windows in London? You get what you incentivize.
- titanomachy 5mo ago
  Is that just because of the scaffolding on everything? IIRC that's due to some legal or tax bullshit.
HerbManic 5mo ago
I get the same thing here is Australia. There is a lot of space with little going on. I mean we have the Nullarbor plain. The name literally means 'No Trees', and it is very fitting. If you ever end up there... I hope you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain

fusslo 5mo ago

I have two chinese-born coworkers (who spent 20-30 years here in the us) in the same room. When we talk about china's expansion, I am always jealous of the public projects, infrastructure, housing, etc. They always point out the huge unemployment of young people, declining birth rate, and other social ills. They say they're worried when the building stops. Even more people will be out of jobs. And when the nation ages all they built will be used and maintained by fewer people I've never been to china so it's interesting perspective from people with family there and go back 2-3 times a year

sureshv 5mo ago
I always take these views with a grain of salt, many immigrant's view of their home country is ossified at the time of emigration.
- simonask 5mo ago
  In the same vein, it’s reasonable to take a foreigner’s view with a grain of salt. For all its impressive progress, China doesn’t show off its problems. The “West” had the same problem many times during the first Cold War, where things in the Soviet Union seemed really great from the outside. Only after the collapse did the truth become clear. Now, I don’t think China is even remotely similar, but never forget that it is not a free society.
  - WarmWash 5mo ago
    In the US it's practically a right of passage to be a young adult and very vocally hate the country, hate the government. In China you don't have a life in front of you if you do that.
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      >In the US it's practically a right of passage to be a young adult and very vocally hate the country, hate the government. Well, unless ICE murders you at a protest for expressing your hate of the government's actions. >In China you don't have a life in front of you if you do that. That's very much not true. China isn't North Korea like Westerners imagine. Unless you riot, take to the streets, or become a big agitator or dissident, Chinese government and media actually does allow some controlled escape valves for regular people to vent about problems, no issue with that. This isn't Stalin's reign of terror. You'll only get disappeared if you end up becoming a big fish to threaten the CCP, like Jack Ma, but otherwise the CCP don't end disappearing every schmuck who complains about the government. You might not know this, but as a nation, you don't get very far economically, academically and technologically in the long run by consonantly oppressing your people under a culture of permanent fear of their government. You can't bleed a stone. And China got where it is, due to its successful policies from the last half-century that brought prosperity and lifted millions of of poverty, it's government has earned a certain level of "buy-in" from the majority of the population, meaning the people are more likely to be cooperative and work with the totalitarian government towards a common set of mutually beneficial goals, rather than wasting their energy trying to mass emigrate out of the country or to fight for democracy. And that's what so dangerous about this, because unlike the USSR who served in the west as THE model of inevitable failure for such systems, China found a successful form of totalitarian governance, that some western governments are now trying to copy when they saw how effective it is.

aworks 5mo ago

I traveled to Wuhan twice a year for business for much of the last decade (until the pandemic). China was a growing country that clearly knew how to build infrastructure. In Wuhan, they built an entire development intended to employ 100,000 engineers (Huawei + our US company's 50). They built a subway system in a decade that's bigger than New York City's. I took the high-speed rail to Beijing and it was superb. They replaced an old, shabby international airport terminal with a new one with the widest concourse I've ever seen. They subsidized regular flights between Wuhan and San Francisco on China Southern airlines. The Hyatt Regency there was one of my favorite hotels I've ever stayed in (cheap and high quality). In a big commerical district, they had the largest screen I've ever seen that had a Blue Screen of Death :-) Dazzling yet I'm not bullish on China due to its demographics, among many other reasons.

twilo 5mo ago
What’s wrong with their demographics? Population decline?
- HerbManic 5mo ago
  It has been called the 4-2-1 problem. 4 people had 2 kids. Those 2 kids had 1 of their own. This means there ends up with a more elderly people with far fewer young to support them. That doesn't look like a recipe for social stability. This is why they are going in so hard on automation nowadays, they are trying to do what Japan attempted in the 90s/2000s but hopefully with more success. This was originally a side effect of the One child policy, but now it is continued due to difficult living situations. This is not a uniquely China issue. https://alexatsintolas.weebly.com/the-4-2-1-problem.html https://alexatsintolas.weebly.com/the-4-2-1-problem.html
  - segmondy 5mo ago
    robots
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]

badpun 5mo ago

I'd say it's a country that builds a ton of infrastructure, at the expense of living standards of common people. The money from infra has to come from anywhere, and an all-powerful central government can just redirect the stream from consumer spending into building out infrastructure. Whether Chinese are happy about it, you'd have to ask them.

tartoran 5mo ago
The US is not building infrastructure at the expense of living standard of common people. Ask Americans if they're happy about it.

10xDev 5mo ago

On the move to where? Massive unemployment amongst youth and population collapse is on its way. You are projecting a fantasy.

thisisit 5mo ago

Whenever the topic of Chinese infrastructure comes up I am reminded of a 2016 Wired documentary about Shenzhen. It was positive portrayal of hacker culture in Shenzhen. But one thing really stood out to me. They had demarcation line separating the city and “urban village”. It looked like lots of poor people lived in the urban village. The guide mentioned that the urban village will be torn down completely in 3 months to expand the city and people had to move. It sounded like gentrification. The host was impressed by the efficiency. But it made me question how many countries can actually be that “efficiency” because matters of uprooting large swath of population will take years not months and run into significant legal challenges as well. To be clear use of eminent domain and gentrification happens even in US but I doubt it can be as “efficient” as a technocratic government. It’s not a knock on Chinese government, just something I always wonder.

esperent 5mo ago
Tearing down a slum is not gentrification. Gentrification is when existing communities that used to have decent if basic living situations get gradually priced out of an area as richer people and their expensive amenities move in. Gradually, as house prices go up and food gets more expensive, people sell and move. It's a slow, mostly voluntary thing, or at least, driven by market forces rather than official mandates. Tearing down a slum is a much more disruptive thing that instantly displaces a entire community. Although it's unclear what happened to that community in this case and I can't find anything clear about it online (lots of clearly biased articles for one side or the other though).