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German council ditching OpenOffice to go back to Microsoft
- kghose 14y agoI have to say, I sympathize with them. I tried libreoffice, but I just could not keep it up. MS Word is annoying enough for me, LibreOffice adds that extra annoyance. I just wish we could move to a markup system like markdown or restructured text with split editors that generate the document on the fly on a different pane. Plain text! Plain text!
- stevoski 14y agoThat sounds like reverting to the style of much older word processing software such as WordStar.
- GrumpySimon 14y agoI've been doing all my editing in plain text (vim if you must know) for about 6 months. Then I use the wonderful PanDoc [1] to convert it to anything I need (usually PDF, sometimes .docx). Everything's much simpler and much more peaceful. [1] http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/
- smutticus 14y agoIf you use a Mac I cannot recommend OmmWriter enough. http://www.ommwriter.com/ http://www.ommwriter.com/
- maguay 14y agoOmmWriter is on Windows too, and is especially great there since there's a dearth of plain writing apps on PCs.
- takluyver 14y agoHave you seen ReText? It's precisely the sort of split editor you're talking about.
- kghose 14y agoThanks! I was more lamenting for wide adoption! Myself, plain old LaTeX is good enough, but my collaborators get anxious having to markup pdf...
- wlesieutre 14y agoI use LibreOffice on my own computers. If I ever had to exchange documents with anyone else, I don't think I would. A friend and I were trying to pick a format to use for some files we're jointly working on via Dropbox, and .docx was not sharing well between multiple pieces of software. I don't know whether Pages on his iPad was more of a problem than LibreOffice, but either way, we settled on Markdown. It's simple, has 100% compatible editors on all platforms, and works just fine for simple documents.
- halter73 14y agoIf you are working with people using Markdown editors built on top of different libraries, they might not really be 100% compatible. John Gruber's spec leaves quite a few ambiguities. http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-examples-of-interesting-divergences-between-implementations http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/faq.html#what-are-some-... http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/10/the-future-of-markdown.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/10/the-future-of-markd...
- wlesieutre 14y agoI'd been editing the markdown directly in MarkdownPad, which seemed to behave as I would expect it with nested lists. Not sure what's available in the way of iPad clients (since I don't have one), but that's disappointing to hear that they might be inconsistent.
- SeanDav 14y agoMS Office, (especially Excel and Word) is some of the best software ever developed. Excel is a fantastically powerful and flexible system and honestly, beyond basic spreadsheet/word processor use, nothing comes close to MS Office. I was kind of hoping that OpenOffice use in Germany would be a success but really can not see how it can compete with MS Office, except on sticker price.
- mbq 14y agoNo, it's the most genius software product ever because it is like a drug -- it attracts newcomers with a seemingful ease, then sucks all their life juices into managing larger documents, finally lefts them with a load of experience, skills and already made docs that only work in Office and cannot be possibly replicated (Office formats and algorithms are build purely of quirks and leaking heuristics).
- DanBC 14y agoMS Office is fantastic software. It is very full featured. Most people don't need nearly all of those features. Most people would be okay using Abiword. The people who need more than Abiword could be using LibreOffice. OpenOffice and LibreOffice are very good packages, but they do still need a bit of work. I hope that they don't focus on duplicating MS Office functionality but on bug fixing and 'feel'. This will make LibreOffice "good enough" and then "better" than MS Office for most users. The esoteric stuff that MS Office does can be left to MS Office, or to other open source projects, or to LibreOffice plug-ins. Another thing that Microsoft has is the MVP scheme. The MVPs are variable quality, but the MS Office MVPs, especially the Excel MVPs have been excellent in promoting Office and providing help and support about how to get the best out of it.
- jiggy2011 14y agoDo any of you technical types still use a word processor on a regular basis (apart from to read documents others have sent)? I just can't remember the last time I created a document in one. If I want to communicate, a plain text email is fine. Want to collaborate on a document? Wiki or git versioned text file is better. Want to publish something for others? Wordpress or straight HTML is better. Want to make a posh looking document? LaTeX generated PDF is better.
- sliverstorm 14y agoWant to collaborate on a document? Want to make a posh looking document? I'd like to live in this world of yours, where everybody is comfortable with Wiki, git, and even LaTeX. Seriously, even most technical types cry out in dismay when they try LaTeX.
- Swizec 14y agoLaTeX is one of those things somebody helps you with. Check any professor's book and there will be a dedication to the guy who helped them put it all into proper LaTeX.
- pseut 14y agoThis is only true of very senior faculty these days, at least in Econ, Statistics, Math, etc.
- _ZeD_ 14y agohave you even tried lyx? http://www.lyx.org/ http://www.lyx.org/
- rodw 14y agoIf you install pandoc [1] you can write in Markdown (or any of a number of formats) and publish in LaTeX, PDF, RTF, HTML etc. It's the bee's knees. (You may want to tweak the default template (some examples are linked at [2]) to improve the default LaTeX rendering.) [1] http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ [2] https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki/Pandoc-Extras https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/wiki/Pandoc-Extras
- nnnnni 14y agoThe frustrating thing is that people think that they have to use a word processor where a simple text editor would suffice.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- forensic 14y agoEfficient text editor usage is still voodoo to anyone who isn't a hacker
- andybak 14y agoDo you mean that formatting itself is superfluous or that everyone should learn something like Markdown? I'm a geek and I don't particularly enjoy using Markdown. I know wysiwyg editors can be frustrating but solve that problem rather than reverting to the modern equivalent of Wordstar formatting codes in some fit of neo-ludditism.
- illuminate 14y agoI don't think most people really want to stare at a console output all day long.
- acc00 14y agoI wonder why SoftMaker doesn't push itself in its home market hard enough. They are at least not worse than Open/LibreOffice. On a different note, it surprises me there doesn't seem to be any effort on a LyX-like editor, probably less tied to LaTeX (LyX already has to do a lot itself, it even got at least one renderer (LyXHTML) that doesn't involve LaTeX at all). That would be a word processor I'd use (otherwise it is as jiggy2011 says).
- brudgers 14y ago"Numerous statements concerning LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice are incorrect or outdated," they said in the letter, adding that the support of LibreOffice and OpenOffice is at a professional level these days. "The assessment of the evaluation that compatibility to Microsoft Office cannot be reached in the next few years, is also wrong," they said. This is not the best way to respond to losing a customer. Though a lack of customer relations is in favor of participation in an ideology is one of FOSS's great weaknesses. The Council changed vendors. They had no choice because Open Office was killed off.
- ZeroGravitas 14y agoStrange that if you create a Word Processing format so byzantine that even the combined might of IBM, Sun, Google and the open source community can't reverse engineer it, (and that you yourself struggle with when porting to Mac OS X or Win 8 RT) that the result is people considering you the safe option for their government data.
- 2muchcoffeeman 14y agoIt's not just the format. MS Office really is better than Libre Office. Even Apple's iWork suite is better than Libre Office. And now that everything is becoming mobile. What choice do you have? The only office suites that work on mobile devices are Office and iWork ...
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago>The only office suites that work on mobile devices are Office and iWork ... // Under a very narrow definition of "mobile". Isn't that where VNC's come in. In a corporate environment why would you attempt to duplicate apps on a mobile device rather than simply securely tunnel to a local instance running all the standard apps on the internal network? I guess one answer is: to use the cloud. But are corps really putting their faith and critical/sensitive docs in the trust of cloud based apps already?
- pmelendez 14y agoSorry if I am wrong, but as far as I know, Office Open XML specification is public since 2007, precisely the version referred in the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML
- ygra 14y agoThe binary formats are open too. Mind you, both OOXML and the binary formats are quite tightly coupled to Office's inner workings and implementing them is probably not easy either. But documented they are.
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- mtgx 14y agoConsidering public institution are using taxpayers' money, I think all of them should be using open source software, for both budget reasons and in principle (to help grow the public open source community, and then benefit from it in the long term). The problem here also sounds like somebody was trying to use Microsoft Office docs in an older version of Open Office. So they were the ones locking themselves in before, and now their solution for having hassle-free work is to reward Microsoft for it, and lock themselves back in? It's like a drug addict who thinks withdrawing is too painful, so might as well continue taking the drugs.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y agoI've used both OpenOffice and MS Office for extended periods and I can honestly say that MS Office is significantly better. Yes you can do pretty much anything you need to do in OpenOffice but if you spend a significant amount of time using them then the little bits of polish in MS Office really add up and for a tool you use a lot that's a big deal. And that goes directly to the budget reasons you mention. As a developer I wanted the best tools for the job, I didn't want the cheapest tool, I wanted the ones that allowed me to be most productive because that saved money. I don't see any reason why my standard as a tax payer should be different - I want people working on my behalf to have the best tools for the job, so they can do the best job for me. I'd love it if Open Office was as good as MS Office but it isn't and until that changes, it's a bit more complex than you're making out.
- kimmel 14y agoAnd your anecdotal account of OpenOffice vs MS Office is supposed to mean something to the rest of us? It is one persons opinion, are you a recognized authority in usability of desktop applications? Can you provide non-biased large scale research studies with clear and concise points of why MS's solution is better? Here is my counter point. I have been using office suites since 'Display Write 4' for MS-DOS in the 80s. I have taught classes on advanced document production using open source software. I have converted hundreds of users to Linux and the only complaints I get about office suites are why are MS formats so incompatible with everything else.
- mkhattab 14y agoThe obvious problem I think, notwithstanding the fork of OpenOffice, is that MS Office is the de-facto standard and it's not in the interest of MS to have the compatibility gap closed. The critical issue with OpenOffice is rooted in Cat String Theory. Compatibility with MS Office is the driving force for development and it's not producing the best UI/UX experience. I think LibreOffice needs to step out of the shadow of MS Office.
- monsterix 14y agoStrange they didn't even consider Google Docs or web for the purpose. It is quite understandable that experience with OpenOffice is not as smooth as it is with Microsoft's word or Apple's iWork, but why not give web a chance and then decide this? As it is Governments are supposed to explore all options and then choose the 'technically acceptable most economical' option? I think Google docs will be sweet and better in some ways for the council, considering that these entities are in dire need of more collaboration. Just my 0.02 cents.
- mryan 14y agoI doubt that many European government organisations would be allowed to use a SaaS app provided by a US company, purely for data protection reasons. There are rules surrounding where personal information may be stored - due to, among other things, the USA PATRIOT act, the US is not usually an option for organisations that deal with personal info.
- anonymous 14y agoCan't you run a private installation of Google Docs?
- icebraining 14y agoNo, there's no Google Docs "appliance". It's their cloud or nothing.
- ygra 14y agoIn fact, I think Microsoft is trying to push into that niche with their Office 365 which complies with European Privacy law. An opportunity Google might just have missed.
- ygra 14y agoThey cannot. There are quite strict laws regarding usage and handling of personal data, especially for government and other state bureaucratic things and that pretty much rules out Google Docs or any other cloud-based provider. They're fine for personal use and companies might opt using them too (although depending on what they do, it could well bring them into legal trouble too), but for governmental work, especially in Germany it's a big no-go.
- mseebach2 14y agoSince then, the city noticed that it has been far from ideal to use only OpenOffice for digital correspondence. Microsoft Office for instance is the standard for external communication, the council said. Well, ur doin it wrong. There are vastly superior alternatives to the workflow I think this implies (e-mailing attached documents around).
- bruceboughton 14y agoSuch as?
- mseebach 14y agoFor sending out "letterhead" documents, embrace the medium instead and have some nice HTML email templates made. If you must, send PDFs. For collaboration workflows, use wiki-style platforms.
- noeleon 14y agoNot surprising. Been through many MS -> OO and back again with various organisations throughout the years. OO is good if -everyone- uses OO. In most organisations you get some genius who develops a fancy-smancy spreadsheet, visio diagram or word document with linked data which will be dependent on the MS access runtime, this gets distributed to all the OO users and it just doesn't work.
- sandGorgon 14y agoI see a lot of comments here, decrying the decision based on a mere word processor. Do also note the problems with the spreadsheet part which, as quoted, is much worse. I can completely sympathize with being forced to abandon Linux itself because of its inability to compete with Excel. There simply is no compatible alternative to excel I'm willing to bet that it was a bigger factor than word processing.
- dsego 14y agoWhy aren't we using HTML for documents yet?
- smartwater 14y agoLibreOffice is fantastic, give it a try