6 ms·

What an unfortunate time for these niche hardware companies to be launching new hardware. Framework, StarLabs, System76, (I wonder if Tuxedo will release someth

What an unfortunate time for these niche hardware companies to be launching new hardware. Framework, StarLabs, System76, (I wonder if Tuxedo will release something). The RAM prices must be killing them. Even if they increase prices to accommodate, I know quite a lot of folks who are simply punting any purchasing until things calm down.

pjmlp 5mo ago
True, but contrary to the fruity models, some of these are upgradedable. My Asus netbook started with basic configuration and was maximised during its lifetime, just like any PC desktop.
- close04 5mo ago
  Except that if you want to save on RAM you'll also have to pick the lower resolution screen and lower rated CPU. These aren't easy upgrades later on.
  - pjmlp 5mo ago
    Still better than no upgrades at all like on Apple land, back to the 8 and 16 home computer days, only external upgrades and cable salad.
    - robotresearcher 5mo ago
      (Exchanged for the largest jump in performance and efficiency the industry had seen for many years).
  - tkz1312 5mo ago
    at least for a framework they are very easy upgrades tbh
    - Tade0 5mo ago
      I love the fact that the bezel is held on by magnets. Last time I tried to replace the display in a laptop, I had plastic bits of bezel flying all around.
InsideOutSanta 5mo ago
I just ordered my Framework without any memory or storage, hoping that by the time it arrives, I'll be able to pick up some RAM and an SSD for a more reasonable price. If not, I'll just grab something from a drawer and use it underspecced until prices normalize.
- pcblues 5mo ago
  Sensible thought. I very much hope there is a glut of one-three year old ram and GPUs on the market in about one year when the AI market "cools" and the ear-marked components return to the market. The banks that lent the AI industry the money are already trying to sell their debt.
  - danparsonson 5mo ago
    Unfortunately most of it will likely be HBM and datacenter GPUs and therefore useless for consumers.
    - nixon_why69 5mo ago
      Datacenter GPUs are still self contained and speak over pcie though, right? So its a form factor and cooling problem, not an insurmountable one.
      - chao- 5mo ago
        Maybe not insurmountable in the "laws of physics" sense? However, it may be so costly in cobbled-together parts, and in time to deal with unsupported drivers and/or VBIOS, that it is not worth it compared to using a proper server hardware with proper SXM sockets. Nvidia is also doing a lot of new, exciting things with networking that may make their SXM-based GPUs require even more just-so hardware support as time goes on. Getting older SXM3 GPUs (i.e. for V100's, from 2017) working via PCIe adapters has been done reliably. However, here is someone who did that successfully, and spent a chunk of time last year trying to do the same for SMX5 (H100) and failing: https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/sxm5-h100-over-pcie-nightmare.47227/ https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/sxm5-h100-... We were all spoiled by the era from 2005-2020, when you could squint at a "server" configuration and see that it was expensive, high-binned, commodity hardware with some extra RAS and OOBM features. You could buy parts harvested from a retired server based on Xeon E5-1680v3 and drop them in your workstation. Or you could buy an entire single-socket Xeon E5 v3 server, plop in a GPU, and mostly use it as a workstation! As-is! Now the serious servers have SOCAMM memory, 400Gbps networking, EDSFF SSDs, maybe are configured for CXL 3.0, et cetera. The hardware itself is so divergent that it isn't swap-in-plug-and-play with desktops, even for some high-end workstations.
notjustanymike 5mo ago
I wonder if this benefits Framework because users can order with little or no RAM, and upgrade a later date?
GuB-42 5mo ago
These laptops are also kind of expensive for the specs, they can afford to increase the prices. Entry-level and gaming hardware is probably suffering the most as they compete in getting the best specs for cheapest. Niche and premium products sell something else: build quality (StarLabs), repairability/upgradability (Framework), Linux compatibility (System76). You don't buy these if you are just looking at performance/price.

pjmlp 5mo ago

True, but contrary to the fruity models, some of these are upgradedable. My Asus netbook started with basic configuration and was maximised during its lifetime, just like any PC desktop.

close04 5mo ago
Except that if you want to save on RAM you'll also have to pick the lower resolution screen and lower rated CPU. These aren't easy upgrades later on.
- pjmlp 5mo ago
  Still better than no upgrades at all like on Apple land, back to the 8 and 16 home computer days, only external upgrades and cable salad.
  - robotresearcher 5mo ago
    (Exchanged for the largest jump in performance and efficiency the industry had seen for many years).
- tkz1312 5mo ago
  at least for a framework they are very easy upgrades tbh
  - Tade0 5mo ago
    I love the fact that the bezel is held on by magnets. Last time I tried to replace the display in a laptop, I had plastic bits of bezel flying all around.

InsideOutSanta 5mo ago

I just ordered my Framework without any memory or storage, hoping that by the time it arrives, I'll be able to pick up some RAM and an SSD for a more reasonable price. If not, I'll just grab something from a drawer and use it underspecced until prices normalize.

pcblues 5mo ago
Sensible thought. I very much hope there is a glut of one-three year old ram and GPUs on the market in about one year when the AI market "cools" and the ear-marked components return to the market. The banks that lent the AI industry the money are already trying to sell their debt.
- danparsonson 5mo ago
  Unfortunately most of it will likely be HBM and datacenter GPUs and therefore useless for consumers.
  - nixon_why69 5mo ago
    Datacenter GPUs are still self contained and speak over pcie though, right? So its a form factor and cooling problem, not an insurmountable one.
    - chao- 5mo ago
      Maybe not insurmountable in the "laws of physics" sense? However, it may be so costly in cobbled-together parts, and in time to deal with unsupported drivers and/or VBIOS, that it is not worth it compared to using a proper server hardware with proper SXM sockets. Nvidia is also doing a lot of new, exciting things with networking that may make their SXM-based GPUs require even more just-so hardware support as time goes on. Getting older SXM3 GPUs (i.e. for V100's, from 2017) working via PCIe adapters has been done reliably. However, here is someone who did that successfully, and spent a chunk of time last year trying to do the same for SMX5 (H100) and failing: https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/sxm5-h100-over-pcie-nightmare.47227/ https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/sxm5-h100-... We were all spoiled by the era from 2005-2020, when you could squint at a "server" configuration and see that it was expensive, high-binned, commodity hardware with some extra RAS and OOBM features. You could buy parts harvested from a retired server based on Xeon E5-1680v3 and drop them in your workstation. Or you could buy an entire single-socket Xeon E5 v3 server, plop in a GPU, and mostly use it as a workstation! As-is! Now the serious servers have SOCAMM memory, 400Gbps networking, EDSFF SSDs, maybe are configured for CXL 3.0, et cetera. The hardware itself is so divergent that it isn't swap-in-plug-and-play with desktops, even for some high-end workstations.

notjustanymike 5mo ago

I wonder if this benefits Framework because users can order with little or no RAM, and upgrade a later date?

GuB-42 5mo ago

These laptops are also kind of expensive for the specs, they can afford to increase the prices. Entry-level and gaming hardware is probably suffering the most as they compete in getting the best specs for cheapest. Niche and premium products sell something else: build quality (StarLabs), repairability/upgradability (Framework), Linux compatibility (System76). You don't buy these if you are just looking at performance/price.