4 ms·

> I would hope the default seccomp policy blocks AF_ALG in these containers. I bet it doesn’t. Oh well. I see a lot of projects blocking those sockets in conta

> I would hope the default seccomp policy blocks AF_ALG in these containers. I bet it doesn’t. Oh well. I see a lot of projects blocking those sockets in containers as a response to this exploit, but it seems rather strange to me. We're disabling a cryptographic performance enhancement feature entirely because there was a security bug in them that one time? It's a rather weird default to use. It's not like we're mass-disabling kernel modules everywhere every time someone discovers an EoP bug, do we? Did we blacklist OpenSSL's binaries after Heartbleed? I suppose it makes sense as a default on vulnerable kernels (though people running vulnerable kernels should put effort into patching rather than workarounds in my opinion), but these defaults are going to be around ten years from now when copy.fail is a distant memory.

nubinetwork 6mo ago
> We're disabling a cryptographic performance enhancement feature entirely because there was a security bug in them that one time? To my knowledge, not many things were using the in-kernel code anyways, the recommended way is to use userland tools... It's optional for openssl, systemd apparently needs it, but deleting the module from one of my systems didn't cause any issues. /shrug
- PunchyHamster 6mo ago
  I haven't had it loaded on 100s of servers ranging kernel version from 5.10 to 6.14. The use is just that low
e12e 6mo ago
In fairness, after heartbleed - there was quite a push to move away from openSSL - like Google's boring ssl, openbsd libressl and Mozilla/nss or gnutls - but the alternative here would be moving to a different kernel, like freebsd or open Solaris/Illumos ...
- PunchyHamster 6mo ago
  that's just moving to kernel that had 1000x less eyes on it. Yeah sure it will have less exploits but purely because nobody bothers to look when there are much juicer targets on Linux. But I am disappointed that we still don't have clear OpenSSL successor, there is nothing to be salvaged from this mess of a project
  - DarkUranium 6mo ago
    1000x less eyes is true, but also: Linux, even in the kernel, has a long history of "move fast and break things". Yes, the syscall API is (famously) stable, but the drivers, for example, are such a mess that many non-Linux projects prefer to take BSD drivers for e.g. WiFi despite them supporting far fewer devices (even if the Linux ones would be license compatible).
    - PunchyHamster 6mo ago
      driver attitude in Linux could be summed up to "we'd rather have the hardware driver working than absent". > but the drivers, for example, are such a mess that many non-Linux projects prefer to take BSD drivers for e.g. WiFi despite them supporting far fewer devices (even if the Linux ones would be license compatible). or vote with your wallet and get device that has well supported card.
  - steve1977 6mo ago
    Less eyes but also less problems like "it's been fixed in the kernel but not in distro XYZ"
Retr0id 6mo ago
iiuc the AF_ALG interface only offers real performance wins if you have specialized hardware that the kernel can offload computations to. If you're not using that hardware, there's little reason not to do the crypto in userspace.
throw0101a 6mo ago
> We're disabling a cryptographic performance enhancement feature entirely because there was a security bug in them that one time? It's a rather weird default to use. The need for this feature/functionality in the fist place is questioned by some: > As someone who works on the Linux kernel's cryptography code, the regularly occurring AF_ALG exploits are really frustrating. AF_ALG, which was added to the kernel many years ago without sufficient review, should not exist. It's very complex, and it exposes a massive attack surface to unprivileged userspace programs. And it's almost completely unnecessary, as userspace already has its own cryptography code to use. The kernel's cryptography code is just for in-kernel users (for example, dm-crypt). > The algorithm being used in this [specific] exploit, "authencesn", is even an IPsec implementation detail, which never should have been exposed to userspace as a general-purpose en/decryption API. […] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952181#unv_47956312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952181#unv_47956312
staticassertion 6mo ago
> a security bug in them that one time? More than one time. > a cryptographic performance enhancement feature It's very rarely used. > Did we blacklist OpenSSL's binaries after Heartbleed? No, but lots of companies have since migrated away. OpenSSL was harder to move away from because there weren't as obvious drop-in replacements. Blocking a syscall that you never actually used is simple and effective.
wahern 6mo ago
If you're using a container as a sandbox, one should use a default deny policy and allow only the facilities required by the container. Though, in practice containers are used to package a huge collection of software, most of which the container creator has no familiarity with and no ability to determine what runtime dependencies, beyond other package names, are required. This one of the reasons why containers, generally speaking, don't offer reliable security. If you can't or won't carefully design your components to sandbox themselves (e.g. by using seccomp and landlock with policies tailored to the specific component), like Chrome or various OpenBSD daemons, then it's far better to use VMs for isolation; and if you do design your components that way, containers are superfluous from a security perspective.

nubinetwork 6mo ago

> We're disabling a cryptographic performance enhancement feature entirely because there was a security bug in them that one time? To my knowledge, not many things were using the in-kernel code anyways, the recommended way is to use userland tools... It's optional for openssl, systemd apparently needs it, but deleting the module from one of my systems didn't cause any issues. /shrug

PunchyHamster 6mo ago
I haven't had it loaded on 100s of servers ranging kernel version from 5.10 to 6.14. The use is just that low

e12e 6mo ago

In fairness, after heartbleed - there was quite a push to move away from openSSL - like Google's boring ssl, openbsd libressl and Mozilla/nss or gnutls - but the alternative here would be moving to a different kernel, like freebsd or open Solaris/Illumos ...

PunchyHamster 6mo ago
that's just moving to kernel that had 1000x less eyes on it. Yeah sure it will have less exploits but purely because nobody bothers to look when there are much juicer targets on Linux. But I am disappointed that we still don't have clear OpenSSL successor, there is nothing to be salvaged from this mess of a project
- DarkUranium 6mo ago
  1000x less eyes is true, but also: Linux, even in the kernel, has a long history of "move fast and break things". Yes, the syscall API is (famously) stable, but the drivers, for example, are such a mess that many non-Linux projects prefer to take BSD drivers for e.g. WiFi despite them supporting far fewer devices (even if the Linux ones would be license compatible).
  - PunchyHamster 6mo ago
    driver attitude in Linux could be summed up to "we'd rather have the hardware driver working than absent". > but the drivers, for example, are such a mess that many non-Linux projects prefer to take BSD drivers for e.g. WiFi despite them supporting far fewer devices (even if the Linux ones would be license compatible). or vote with your wallet and get device that has well supported card.
- steve1977 6mo ago
  Less eyes but also less problems like "it's been fixed in the kernel but not in distro XYZ"

Retr0id 6mo ago

iiuc the AF_ALG interface only offers real performance wins if you have specialized hardware that the kernel can offload computations to. If you're not using that hardware, there's little reason not to do the crypto in userspace.

throw0101a 6mo ago

> We're disabling a cryptographic performance enhancement feature entirely because there was a security bug in them that one time? It's a rather weird default to use. The need for this feature/functionality in the fist place is questioned by some: > As someone who works on the Linux kernel's cryptography code, the regularly occurring AF_ALG exploits are really frustrating. AF_ALG, which was added to the kernel many years ago without sufficient review, should not exist. It's very complex, and it exposes a massive attack surface to unprivileged userspace programs. And it's almost completely unnecessary, as userspace already has its own cryptography code to use. The kernel's cryptography code is just for in-kernel users (for example, dm-crypt). > The algorithm being used in this [specific] exploit, "authencesn", is even an IPsec implementation detail, which never should have been exposed to userspace as a general-purpose en/decryption API. […] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952181#unv_47956312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952181#unv_47956312

staticassertion 6mo ago

> a security bug in them that one time? More than one time. > a cryptographic performance enhancement feature It's very rarely used. > Did we blacklist OpenSSL's binaries after Heartbleed? No, but lots of companies have since migrated away. OpenSSL was harder to move away from because there weren't as obvious drop-in replacements. Blocking a syscall that you never actually used is simple and effective.

wahern 6mo ago

If you're using a container as a sandbox, one should use a default deny policy and allow only the facilities required by the container. Though, in practice containers are used to package a huge collection of software, most of which the container creator has no familiarity with and no ability to determine what runtime dependencies, beyond other package names, are required. This one of the reasons why containers, generally speaking, don't offer reliable security. If you can't or won't carefully design your components to sandbox themselves (e.g. by using seccomp and landlock with policies tailored to the specific component), like Chrome or various OpenBSD daemons, then it's far better to use VMs for isolation; and if you do design your components that way, containers are superfluous from a security perspective.