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Full is a relative term. Full compared to what? Compared to a professional rally car driver? Compared to my grandmother? Compared to a properly licensed tourist

Full is a relative term. Full compared to what? Compared to a professional rally car driver? Compared to my grandmother? Compared to a properly licensed tourist in a foreign country? From videos I see on YouTube, I’m struggling to think what is not Full compared to—at a bare minimum—the bottom 10 percent of drivers on the road.

bluGill 5mo ago
Nobody admits they're in the bottom 10%. Nobody even admits they're in the bottom 75%.
- BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago
  I'm bottom 75%.
  - bluGill 5mo ago
    That is brave. Unless you have 5 DWIs to prove how bad a driver you are, or something equally bad... Or maybe you have finally realized old age has destroyed your mind and so you no longer have a drivers license (though this is rare). Honestly I have no idea how I would objectively rate my driving. I know a few things that I do better than everyone else - but I have no idea what bad things I'm doing that I'm unaware of. I don't know if the bad things I avoid are the really bad things that make me much better, or if they are just minor things and the things I'm unaware of are much more important. About the only thing everyone knows about is that driving drunk is really really bad, but most people don't do that.
    - BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago
      I said "bottom 75%", not "bottom 7.5%".
      - bluGill 5mo ago
        Exactly, most everyone thinks they are better that 75%
parineum 5mo ago
"Full" in full self-driving is a superfluous modifier. But it does is further emphasize that, what a person would consider "self-driving", it can do. Except it can't, of course.
jandrese 5mo ago
For me it has a very specific meaning: "Full" means "Unsupervised and without a geofence". Anything less is not Full Self Driving.
- simondotau 5mo ago
  If someone is legally restricted from leaving their home town, does that mean they're not able to fully self drive a car?
  - jandrese 5mo ago
    Yes. If they're restricted they do not have full driving rights. This is of course relative to other drivers. If nobody from your country is allowed to drive in a different country for political reasons or something then not being able to drive there doesn't mean you lack full driving rights. Even someone who has a breathalyzer built into their car doesn't have their full driving rights.
    - simondotau 5mo ago
      How would you distinguish political reasons from legal reasons? If Bruce is legally precluded from leaving the state of Rhode Island, would we stop describing his brain and body as being capable of the full driving task? How about if he's allowed to drive anywhere except Rhode Island? Is that any different?
Dylan16807 5mo ago
> From videos I see on YouTube, I’m struggling to think what is not Full compared to—at a bare minimum—the bottom 10 percent of drivers on the road. Try sitting in the back seat or even just acting like a passenger and you'll see the difference very quickly.
breve 5mo ago
> Full compared to what? Tesla set their own benchmark, their own goal posts, and their own timelines. In 2016 Tesla said, "as of today, all Tesla vehicles produced in our factory – including Model 3 – will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.": https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-stating-all-cars-have-self-driving-hardware/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-s... https://web.archive.org/web/20240730071548/https://tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://web.archive.org/web/20240730071548/https://tesla.com... That was, of course, a lie. Tesla has spent the last 10 years lying about the state of FSD. Tesla keeps claiming FSD will be achieved "next year". What about 1 million robotaxis on the road by 2020: https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-million-tesla-robotaxis-by-the-end-of-2020-where-are-they https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-mil... More lies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autonomous_Tesla_vehicles_by_Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autono... But you knew all that already. Defending a decade's worth of lies is intellectually dishonest.
- simondotau 5mo ago
  Some advice if you want to be intellectually satiated, I would suggest disregarding any forward-looking statements by any company executives. You'll find life to be a lot less emotionally draining. You can change the subject to the hyperbole and spin by Elon Musk, that's fine. Just be aware that's what you're doing. You're changing the subject. I do understand this cult of anti-personality, but I'm only interested in the technology (made by thousands of people whose name is not Elon) in customer hands right now and not about past promises. Right now, their FSD technology stack looks fairly impressive.
  - breve 5mo ago
    The subject hasn't changed. The subject is Tesla's full self-driving is not, in fact, full self-driving. It wasn't 10 years ago and it still isn't now. If you are unable to admit to the practical reality of that then you are not interested in technology.

bluGill 5mo ago

Nobody admits they're in the bottom 10%. Nobody even admits they're in the bottom 75%.

BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago
I'm bottom 75%.
- bluGill 5mo ago
  That is brave. Unless you have 5 DWIs to prove how bad a driver you are, or something equally bad... Or maybe you have finally realized old age has destroyed your mind and so you no longer have a drivers license (though this is rare). Honestly I have no idea how I would objectively rate my driving. I know a few things that I do better than everyone else - but I have no idea what bad things I'm doing that I'm unaware of. I don't know if the bad things I avoid are the really bad things that make me much better, or if they are just minor things and the things I'm unaware of are much more important. About the only thing everyone knows about is that driving drunk is really really bad, but most people don't do that.
  - BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago
    I said "bottom 75%", not "bottom 7.5%".
    - bluGill 5mo ago
      Exactly, most everyone thinks they are better that 75%

parineum 5mo ago

"Full" in full self-driving is a superfluous modifier. But it does is further emphasize that, what a person would consider "self-driving", it can do. Except it can't, of course.

jandrese 5mo ago

For me it has a very specific meaning: "Full" means "Unsupervised and without a geofence". Anything less is not Full Self Driving.

simondotau 5mo ago
If someone is legally restricted from leaving their home town, does that mean they're not able to fully self drive a car?
- jandrese 5mo ago
  Yes. If they're restricted they do not have full driving rights. This is of course relative to other drivers. If nobody from your country is allowed to drive in a different country for political reasons or something then not being able to drive there doesn't mean you lack full driving rights. Even someone who has a breathalyzer built into their car doesn't have their full driving rights.
  - simondotau 5mo ago
    How would you distinguish political reasons from legal reasons? If Bruce is legally precluded from leaving the state of Rhode Island, would we stop describing his brain and body as being capable of the full driving task? How about if he's allowed to drive anywhere except Rhode Island? Is that any different?

Dylan16807 5mo ago

> From videos I see on YouTube, I’m struggling to think what is not Full compared to—at a bare minimum—the bottom 10 percent of drivers on the road. Try sitting in the back seat or even just acting like a passenger and you'll see the difference very quickly.

breve 5mo ago

> Full compared to what? Tesla set their own benchmark, their own goal posts, and their own timelines. In 2016 Tesla said, "as of today, all Tesla vehicles produced in our factory – including Model 3 – will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.": https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-stating-all-cars-have-self-driving-hardware/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-s... https://web.archive.org/web/20240730071548/https://tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://web.archive.org/web/20240730071548/https://tesla.com... That was, of course, a lie. Tesla has spent the last 10 years lying about the state of FSD. Tesla keeps claiming FSD will be achieved "next year". What about 1 million robotaxis on the road by 2020: https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-million-tesla-robotaxis-by-the-end-of-2020-where-are-they https://www.thedrive.com/news/38129/elon-musk-promised-1-mil... More lies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autonomous_Tesla_vehicles_by_Elon_Musk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autono... But you knew all that already. Defending a decade's worth of lies is intellectually dishonest.

simondotau 5mo ago
Some advice if you want to be intellectually satiated, I would suggest disregarding any forward-looking statements by any company executives. You'll find life to be a lot less emotionally draining. You can change the subject to the hyperbole and spin by Elon Musk, that's fine. Just be aware that's what you're doing. You're changing the subject. I do understand this cult of anti-personality, but I'm only interested in the technology (made by thousands of people whose name is not Elon) in customer hands right now and not about past promises. Right now, their FSD technology stack looks fairly impressive.
- breve 5mo ago
  The subject hasn't changed. The subject is Tesla's full self-driving is not, in fact, full self-driving. It wasn't 10 years ago and it still isn't now. If you are unable to admit to the practical reality of that then you are not interested in technology.