4 ms·

In DACH, there's not really an alternative for many homes. Heat pumps are by now cheaper, more efficient, more versatile and definitely greener than other means

In DACH, there's not really an alternative for many homes. Heat pumps are by now cheaper, more efficient, more versatile and definitely greener than other means of heating. If you get one, just make sure to get the dimensioning right. They are WAY more complex to plan, install and maintain than traditional heating.

pimlottc 5mo ago
> DACH, an acronym for Deutschland (Germany), Austria, Confoederatio Helvetica (Swiss Confederation), the three major German-speaking countries I was not familiar with this term before, had to look it up.
- ndr42 5mo ago
  A great acronym as it translates to roof (Dach in german).
- jmercouris 5mo ago
  It doesn’t even make sense though, shouldn’t it be DÖCH?
  - azepoi 5mo ago
    It goes by license plate codes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_vehicle_registration_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_vehicle_registra... It makes for a fun acronym DACH meaning roof in german. If they used Ö why not DÖS with an S for Schweiz then ?
    - ButlerianJihad 5mo ago
      I think you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 Because this consortium seemingly has nothing to do with receiving license plate assignments. And the acronym seems to derive from your general vernacular, lending its name to many other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_German_speakers#German-speaking_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_G...
- 0dayz 5mo ago
  I guess GAS is a bit awkward when talking about green energy (even if somehow natural gas is considered "green") and sustainable heating source.
joe_mamba 5mo ago
>In DACH, there's not really an alternative for many homes. And yet in Austria, most apartment buildings in big cities are still heated by burning heating oil, gas or even firewood. Worst of the worst for air quality. Walk through Graz in sub-zero winters and it's like you're breathing in a barbeque bonfire. Even your clothes smell like soot when you get home if you've been out too long. Which is bizarre to me, considering how much posturing and chest thumping Austria is doing about how green and anti-Nuclear they are yet they love burring wood and oil. Male this make sense please. Sure, rich people in the bacon belt living in single family homes in the suburbs or rural areas, have heat pumps, solar panels on the roof and a Tesla in the garage, but that's a different story compared to those living in the city stuck in the fossil fuel stone age, where they have no choice over their rented building's heating method. How do you convert the city's apartment buildings to heat pumps? Is it a technological limitation? Money limitation? Bureaucratic and political limitation? All of the above?
- gpm 5mo ago
  Beurocratic and political limitation. Firewood and heating oil isn't cheaper, it merely has lower upfront cost in exchange for a higher total cost. An efficient governance system (whether that's capitalism and banks with loans or renting out the hearpumps or a centrally planned replacement program or anything else) would figure out the financing and save the system money by updating. Technology can make the incentives even larger. Excess money can make it easier for the governance system to reach the solution. But it's at the point where without any improvement to either an ideal system would figure out how to make the switch happen.
  - c0balt 5mo ago
    There is also a minor incentive problem here, mainly that a landlord can/will often offload the running costs, Nebenkosten, to the renters indefinitely. That means they are sometimes economically incentivized to choose an option with lower initial cost but a higher running cost. Governments can/do bend these incentives via taxes but it can be hard/expensive to renovate old complexes (and that part cannot directly be offloaded by the landlord).
pojzon 5mo ago
1) To make it really green and viable -> you „need” solar installation 2) To have solar installation you have to abaid to painfully stupid legistlation 3) In winter pump is as green as the diesel generator that produces energy for it to run
- jmull 5mo ago
  Sounds like you're in a specific situation. I wonder what it is and whether it applies to a lot of other people?
  - formerly_proven 5mo ago
    In what I assume is GP's general area coal furnaces are quite common for heating.
    - dalyons 5mo ago
      yuck. worst possible option.
- klinch 5mo ago
  I'm sure you already made up your mind about heat pumps and that I can't convince you otherwise. But for other readers, let me add some thoughts to your points. 1) well, there's a grid. So as long as someone somewhere on your continent produces green energy it is viable and green. 2) arguable. Depends on your legislation. 3) Again, there's a grid. And even considering the worst case of no renewable sources at all: A heat pump (which uses 1kWh of electricity to provide 3-6kWh of heat) powered by a diesel generator is still more efficient than burning the diesel directly. Now add efficient combined cycle power plants, wind, biomass, hydro and battery storage systems...
  - pojzon 5mo ago
    We are 40 years in back when it comes to grid infrastructure investmets. Grid is not some magical thing that has infinite capacity and transfer speed and costs. The reason why powerplants have to be strategically distributed around the country and have to consist of multiple different power geration sources. Cyting Germany’s cancelor „Going full green was a strategic mistake” Ps. Heat pump is as effective as the heat source it can use..
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
mikeocool 5mo ago
[dead]
CivBase 5mo ago
> They are WAY more complex to plan, install and maintain than traditional heating. I'm curious what about them would be more difficult to plan, install, and maintain. Obviously there are many things to consider when retrofitting a building with a central gas furnace... but otherwise why would they be much more complicated than an air conditioning system?
- crazygringo 5mo ago
  I've had a lot of mold problems with mine. Because they have to be strong enough to handle the coldest winter days, which makes them way overpowered when running air-conditioning in the summer, which means that when you run them in energy efficient mode, they are actively cooling only a small fraction of the time and all of the condensed water just sits there growing mold all day long. It also leaves the home far more humid than usual because it's not removing nearly as much humidity from the air as a less powerful unit running constantly would. This isn't a problem with regular air-conditioning that is provisioned correctly for the size of your home, because it winds up actively running a lot of the time so the water is draining as new humidity condenses.
  - ericd 5mo ago
    Sounds like you've got a single stage/speed heat pump, the good ones nowadays are variable speed, with pretty significant turndown ratios, so oversizing is less of an issue. I've been idly hacking on this site for comparing heatpump stats, if you're curious to learn more: https://www.heatpushers.com/ https://www.heatpushers.com/
  - thrownthatway 5mo ago
    Yep! Massively overlooked aspect of the pro- heat pump crowed. It’s good to see this brought up and discussed more.
ProllyInfamous 5mo ago
>[heatpump waterheaters are] WAY more complex to plan, install Only if you place them within <700sqft (for a typical indoor residential location). Only in areas smaller will you need to duct them, somewhat similarly to: <https://i.imgur.com/4wCez9u.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/4wCez9u.jpeg> this specific design draws from both bath and bedroom [dual 6" inlets], exhausts into kitchen [single 8" outlet] | utility closet is only 5ft x 4ft (~20sqft) As an added bonus it'll passively dehumidify/cool whereever it drafts to/from.

pimlottc 5mo ago

> DACH, an acronym for Deutschland (Germany), Austria, Confoederatio Helvetica (Swiss Confederation), the three major German-speaking countries I was not familiar with this term before, had to look it up.

ndr42 5mo ago
A great acronym as it translates to roof (Dach in german).
jmercouris 5mo ago
It doesn’t even make sense though, shouldn’t it be DÖCH?
- azepoi 5mo ago
  It goes by license plate codes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_vehicle_registration_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_vehicle_registra... It makes for a fun acronym DACH meaning roof in german. If they used Ö why not DÖS with an S for Schweiz then ?
  - ButlerianJihad 5mo ago
    I think you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 Because this consortium seemingly has nothing to do with receiving license plate assignments. And the acronym seems to derive from your general vernacular, lending its name to many other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_German_speakers#German-speaking_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_G...
0dayz 5mo ago
I guess GAS is a bit awkward when talking about green energy (even if somehow natural gas is considered "green") and sustainable heating source.

joe_mamba 5mo ago

>In DACH, there's not really an alternative for many homes. And yet in Austria, most apartment buildings in big cities are still heated by burning heating oil, gas or even firewood. Worst of the worst for air quality. Walk through Graz in sub-zero winters and it's like you're breathing in a barbeque bonfire. Even your clothes smell like soot when you get home if you've been out too long. Which is bizarre to me, considering how much posturing and chest thumping Austria is doing about how green and anti-Nuclear they are yet they love burring wood and oil. Male this make sense please. Sure, rich people in the bacon belt living in single family homes in the suburbs or rural areas, have heat pumps, solar panels on the roof and a Tesla in the garage, but that's a different story compared to those living in the city stuck in the fossil fuel stone age, where they have no choice over their rented building's heating method. How do you convert the city's apartment buildings to heat pumps? Is it a technological limitation? Money limitation? Bureaucratic and political limitation? All of the above?

gpm 5mo ago
Beurocratic and political limitation. Firewood and heating oil isn't cheaper, it merely has lower upfront cost in exchange for a higher total cost. An efficient governance system (whether that's capitalism and banks with loans or renting out the hearpumps or a centrally planned replacement program or anything else) would figure out the financing and save the system money by updating. Technology can make the incentives even larger. Excess money can make it easier for the governance system to reach the solution. But it's at the point where without any improvement to either an ideal system would figure out how to make the switch happen.
- c0balt 5mo ago
  There is also a minor incentive problem here, mainly that a landlord can/will often offload the running costs, Nebenkosten, to the renters indefinitely. That means they are sometimes economically incentivized to choose an option with lower initial cost but a higher running cost. Governments can/do bend these incentives via taxes but it can be hard/expensive to renovate old complexes (and that part cannot directly be offloaded by the landlord).

pojzon 5mo ago

1) To make it really green and viable -> you „need” solar installation 2) To have solar installation you have to abaid to painfully stupid legistlation 3) In winter pump is as green as the diesel generator that produces energy for it to run

jmull 5mo ago
Sounds like you're in a specific situation. I wonder what it is and whether it applies to a lot of other people?
- formerly_proven 5mo ago
  In what I assume is GP's general area coal furnaces are quite common for heating.
  - dalyons 5mo ago
    yuck. worst possible option.
klinch 5mo ago
I'm sure you already made up your mind about heat pumps and that I can't convince you otherwise. But for other readers, let me add some thoughts to your points. 1) well, there's a grid. So as long as someone somewhere on your continent produces green energy it is viable and green. 2) arguable. Depends on your legislation. 3) Again, there's a grid. And even considering the worst case of no renewable sources at all: A heat pump (which uses 1kWh of electricity to provide 3-6kWh of heat) powered by a diesel generator is still more efficient than burning the diesel directly. Now add efficient combined cycle power plants, wind, biomass, hydro and battery storage systems...
- pojzon 5mo ago
  We are 40 years in back when it comes to grid infrastructure investmets. Grid is not some magical thing that has infinite capacity and transfer speed and costs. The reason why powerplants have to be strategically distributed around the country and have to consist of multiple different power geration sources. Cyting Germany’s cancelor „Going full green was a strategic mistake” Ps. Heat pump is as effective as the heat source it can use..

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

mikeocool 5mo ago

[dead]

CivBase 5mo ago

> They are WAY more complex to plan, install and maintain than traditional heating. I'm curious what about them would be more difficult to plan, install, and maintain. Obviously there are many things to consider when retrofitting a building with a central gas furnace... but otherwise why would they be much more complicated than an air conditioning system?

crazygringo 5mo ago
I've had a lot of mold problems with mine. Because they have to be strong enough to handle the coldest winter days, which makes them way overpowered when running air-conditioning in the summer, which means that when you run them in energy efficient mode, they are actively cooling only a small fraction of the time and all of the condensed water just sits there growing mold all day long. It also leaves the home far more humid than usual because it's not removing nearly as much humidity from the air as a less powerful unit running constantly would. This isn't a problem with regular air-conditioning that is provisioned correctly for the size of your home, because it winds up actively running a lot of the time so the water is draining as new humidity condenses.
- ericd 5mo ago
  Sounds like you've got a single stage/speed heat pump, the good ones nowadays are variable speed, with pretty significant turndown ratios, so oversizing is less of an issue. I've been idly hacking on this site for comparing heatpump stats, if you're curious to learn more: https://www.heatpushers.com/ https://www.heatpushers.com/
- thrownthatway 5mo ago
  Yep! Massively overlooked aspect of the pro- heat pump crowed. It’s good to see this brought up and discussed more.

ProllyInfamous 5mo ago

>[heatpump waterheaters are] WAY more complex to plan, install Only if you place them within <700sqft (for a typical indoor residential location). Only in areas smaller will you need to duct them, somewhat similarly to: <https://i.imgur.com/4wCez9u.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/4wCez9u.jpeg> this specific design draws from both bath and bedroom [dual 6" inlets], exhausts into kitchen [single 8" outlet] | utility closet is only 5ft x 4ft (~20sqft) As an added bonus it'll passively dehumidify/cool whereever it drafts to/from.