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It isn't. As someone who has made hiring and firing decisions at the Board level, the people who are the most severely affected were either (in no order): 1.

It isn't. As someone who has made hiring and firing decisions at the Board level, the people who are the most severely affected were either (in no order): 1. Working remotely in North America but demanding Bay Area salaries without the chops to justify it. 2. Working in Western Europe (they complain more about stuff irrelevant to the business but shy away from business critical decision making when offered the opportunity, unlike their Czech, Polish, Romanian, and Bulgarian peers despite us paying €90k-150k TCs across the EU, and Warsaw+Prague becoming Berlin level expensive). 3. Bootcamp grads who never fixed skills issues (foundational knowledge is foundational for a reason). 4. Getting paid Bay Area or Seattle salaries while living in LCOL regions like RTP. The whole point of a Cary office was inshoring - the talent was meh but if we needed a cheap QA engineer or move ops for a stagnant part of our business in 2019 we'd move that job and BU there. They didn't realize they were viewed as at the bottom of the totem pole skills wise. ------- So long as you keep your skills sharp, have foundational computer science and engineering knowledge, and live in the primary tech hubs globally, it's a pretty good market. ------- Edit: can't reply > What, in your opinion are the “foundational” CS skills the #3 people are missing If you've survived this long, I think you will be fine. But I'd recommend anyone from a bootcamp to take an OS course comparable to CS61 [0], an algos course comparable to CS170 [1], and a programming language design course comparable to CS421 [2]. There is foundational design and architectural patterns and knowledge that are taught in OS, Programming Language Design, and Algos classes that cannot be taught in a bootcamp. My recommendation for people in your shoes is to do GATech's OMSCS or UPenn's online MCIT to learn some of the foundational stuff you were never introduced to at a bootcamp. [0] - https://cs61.seas.harvard.edu/site/2025/ https://cs61.seas.harvard.edu/site/2025/ [1] - https://cs170.org/ https://cs170.org/ [2] - https://cs421-sp26-web.pages.dev/ https://cs421-sp26-web.pages.dev/

yolo3000 6mo ago
Why do you even hire in Europe when the smartest people are in the Bay Area?
- VerifiedReports 6mo ago
  Why even post such an absurd comment?
  - yolo3000 6mo ago
    I find it absurd how she generalized that Western Europe is complaining a lot and less pragmatic than whatever. The same for working remote but not having the chops like the 'Bay Area'. Could have been a serious question as well, why do you find it absurd?
    - VerifiedReports 6mo ago
      I didn't see a reference to any of that in the question. I'm mocking the unsupported declaration about "best people are in the Bay area."
- alephnerd 6mo ago
  In some subindustries within tech (eg. Cybersecurity), the best engineering talent is now in Eastern Europe, Israel, and India and not the Bay. Additionally, diaspora engineers whose parents are growing old are starting to move back to the old country to be close with them.
  - porridgeraisin 6mo ago
    I see you read the srinivas narayan article :P He's moving back close to where I stay. Many others from the big labs are moving back to their core EE field into stuff like optical networks for data centers and so on by the way. That is a lot of the attrition.
    - alephnerd 6mo ago
      > I see you read the srinivas narayan article Nope. At his level and position I doubt that is actually the primary reason simply because at his level, a way would have been found to retain him despite family issues (eg. opening an OpenAI tech office in Bangalore, Hyderabad, or Chennai or make him GM for OpenAI in India). Something else is going on with Srinivas' departure - either pushed out by Fidji or planning on starting his own thing. That said, in my peer group I would say around 25-35% of people left for the family reason - especially after how COVID was handled in India. At one point, Google leadership was offering to match MTV salaries for engineers and PMs who Google wanted to retain but who decided to shift back to India to care for family during and slightly after the pandemic. > Many others from the big labs are moving back to their core EE field into stuff like optical networks for data centers and so on by the way. That is a lot of the attrition. My hunch is he is probably leaving to work on something like this or an adjacent space, but admitting as such would leave him open to litigation. That said, given his age I'd assume family decisions are also somewhat playing a role. Ofc, some Indian diaspora types do leave for other reasons (eg. Sridhar Vembu and his divorce). On the EE and optical side, diaspora founders are actually serious about leaving the US for Hyderabad simply because the Indian vintages of American deeptech funds plus the RDI are giving ridiculously competitive funding terms for startups in that space.
dgellow 6mo ago
I feel so much disdain for workers coming from your words. I hope to never work for someone like you
- alephnerd 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ieieje 6mo ago
    And you’re still on HN after posting you wanted your account deleted. Who are you mate? You think you’re someone special? Hahahahh
- ieieje 6mo ago
  He’s a bozo who said he would delete his account. And yet he’s still among us. Pathetic lmao.
- AlexeyBelov 6mo ago
  He's a resident clown who thinks he's hot shit because he's "a VC". Doesn't understand he has no respect from anyone here, lmao.
icedchai 6mo ago
Translation: for almost everyone not living in a major tech hub, it's not a good market.
- queenkjuul 6mo ago
  I.e. "for most people..."
luke5441 6mo ago
As someone maybe in group (2). What kind of stereotyping is this? And why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones? Maybe older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations, but is this the kind of company you want to have? I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage, B2B contracts are also easier in eastern Europe.
- alephnerd 6mo ago
  > why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones We want opinionated engineers. But we want engineers who will respond to a slack message after 5pm during a P1 escalation. > I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage Somewhat but not enough to move the needle because depending on the local government, they are matching cross-EU subsidizes. > older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations Other way around. The Western European employees want a heads down and no input but high paying job. CEE peers will push back and be opinionated but also try to think from a business outcomes perspective. > soviet style work configurations Which ironically is closer to German business and work culture instead of in Eastern Europe. Edit: can't reply > Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income Salaries at the 75th percentile and above for SWEs are kept constant across Europe. Heck, the companies for which I am a board member as well as companies at I have previously been management or line-level engineers all pay in the €130K-€170K TC range in Germany as well as across the CEE. This is waaaaaay above TC for the average European in tech and we know it. It sucks but the reality is the talent density in Western Europe is weaker than in the CEE, and it is mindset driven. A German SWE wants a 9-5. A Czech SWE wants to build the next JetBrains. We want to hire or fund the latter, not the former.
  - luke5441 6mo ago
    It's idk 10% for B2B in Poland and more than 50% in western Europe. Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income the first person will put in more effort. In western Europe you'd just have to specify the availability requirements and they'd do it there as well. You'd just have to pay for it. Edit: If you pay someone 150k€ in Germany what they see after-tax is just not that much. They are going to compare this with the 9-5 IGM position (when it is available...). Why not just admit that you don't want to pay equivalent wages for accessing the western european market?
weakfish 6mo ago
lol you might work for my company re: point 4
- alephnerd 6mo ago
  Naw, I would never work there unless I was given Jeetu or Ammar's job. That said, you seem like someone who actually has the calibre to be hired at a good Security, DevTools, or Infra company. This is my throwaway, but my two cents to you is to leave asap and try to find a way to work at a company that values OS and kernel level knowledge (probably GCP atm), but that would require relocating to the Bay or NYC.
falkensmaize 6mo ago
I’m a bootcamp grad (although it was an intense 5-night a week, year long bootcamp, not some 6-week build-a-demo class). I have a college degree but it’s in the arts. I do try to continually improve my skill set, refresh on design patterns, etc. I’m currently employed and have been for the last six years. I don’t really know if I fall in category 3 or not. What, in your opinion are the “foundational” CS skills the #3 people are missing?

yolo3000 6mo ago

Why do you even hire in Europe when the smartest people are in the Bay Area?

VerifiedReports 6mo ago
Why even post such an absurd comment?
- yolo3000 6mo ago
  I find it absurd how she generalized that Western Europe is complaining a lot and less pragmatic than whatever. The same for working remote but not having the chops like the 'Bay Area'. Could have been a serious question as well, why do you find it absurd?
  - VerifiedReports 6mo ago
    I didn't see a reference to any of that in the question. I'm mocking the unsupported declaration about "best people are in the Bay area."
alephnerd 6mo ago
In some subindustries within tech (eg. Cybersecurity), the best engineering talent is now in Eastern Europe, Israel, and India and not the Bay. Additionally, diaspora engineers whose parents are growing old are starting to move back to the old country to be close with them.
- porridgeraisin 6mo ago
  I see you read the srinivas narayan article :P He's moving back close to where I stay. Many others from the big labs are moving back to their core EE field into stuff like optical networks for data centers and so on by the way. That is a lot of the attrition.
  - alephnerd 6mo ago
    > I see you read the srinivas narayan article Nope. At his level and position I doubt that is actually the primary reason simply because at his level, a way would have been found to retain him despite family issues (eg. opening an OpenAI tech office in Bangalore, Hyderabad, or Chennai or make him GM for OpenAI in India). Something else is going on with Srinivas' departure - either pushed out by Fidji or planning on starting his own thing. That said, in my peer group I would say around 25-35% of people left for the family reason - especially after how COVID was handled in India. At one point, Google leadership was offering to match MTV salaries for engineers and PMs who Google wanted to retain but who decided to shift back to India to care for family during and slightly after the pandemic. > Many others from the big labs are moving back to their core EE field into stuff like optical networks for data centers and so on by the way. That is a lot of the attrition. My hunch is he is probably leaving to work on something like this or an adjacent space, but admitting as such would leave him open to litigation. That said, given his age I'd assume family decisions are also somewhat playing a role. Ofc, some Indian diaspora types do leave for other reasons (eg. Sridhar Vembu and his divorce). On the EE and optical side, diaspora founders are actually serious about leaving the US for Hyderabad simply because the Indian vintages of American deeptech funds plus the RDI are giving ridiculously competitive funding terms for startups in that space.

dgellow 6mo ago

I feel so much disdain for workers coming from your words. I hope to never work for someone like you

alephnerd 6mo ago
[flagged]
- ieieje 6mo ago
  And you’re still on HN after posting you wanted your account deleted. Who are you mate? You think you’re someone special? Hahahahh
ieieje 6mo ago
He’s a bozo who said he would delete his account. And yet he’s still among us. Pathetic lmao.
AlexeyBelov 6mo ago
He's a resident clown who thinks he's hot shit because he's "a VC". Doesn't understand he has no respect from anyone here, lmao.

icedchai 6mo ago

Translation: for almost everyone not living in a major tech hub, it's not a good market.

queenkjuul 6mo ago
I.e. "for most people..."

luke5441 6mo ago

As someone maybe in group (2). What kind of stereotyping is this? And why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones? Maybe older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations, but is this the kind of company you want to have? I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage, B2B contracts are also easier in eastern Europe.

alephnerd 6mo ago
> why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones We want opinionated engineers. But we want engineers who will respond to a slack message after 5pm during a P1 escalation. > I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage Somewhat but not enough to move the needle because depending on the local government, they are matching cross-EU subsidizes. > older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations Other way around. The Western European employees want a heads down and no input but high paying job. CEE peers will push back and be opinionated but also try to think from a business outcomes perspective. > soviet style work configurations Which ironically is closer to German business and work culture instead of in Eastern Europe. Edit: can't reply > Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income Salaries at the 75th percentile and above for SWEs are kept constant across Europe. Heck, the companies for which I am a board member as well as companies at I have previously been management or line-level engineers all pay in the €130K-€170K TC range in Germany as well as across the CEE. This is waaaaaay above TC for the average European in tech and we know it. It sucks but the reality is the talent density in Western Europe is weaker than in the CEE, and it is mindset driven. A German SWE wants a 9-5. A Czech SWE wants to build the next JetBrains. We want to hire or fund the latter, not the former.
- luke5441 6mo ago
  It's idk 10% for B2B in Poland and more than 50% in western Europe. Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income the first person will put in more effort. In western Europe you'd just have to specify the availability requirements and they'd do it there as well. You'd just have to pay for it. Edit: If you pay someone 150k€ in Germany what they see after-tax is just not that much. They are going to compare this with the 9-5 IGM position (when it is available...). Why not just admit that you don't want to pay equivalent wages for accessing the western european market?

weakfish 6mo ago

lol you might work for my company re: point 4

alephnerd 6mo ago
Naw, I would never work there unless I was given Jeetu or Ammar's job. That said, you seem like someone who actually has the calibre to be hired at a good Security, DevTools, or Infra company. This is my throwaway, but my two cents to you is to leave asap and try to find a way to work at a company that values OS and kernel level knowledge (probably GCP atm), but that would require relocating to the Bay or NYC.

falkensmaize 6mo ago

I’m a bootcamp grad (although it was an intense 5-night a week, year long bootcamp, not some 6-week build-a-demo class). I have a college degree but it’s in the arts. I do try to continually improve my skill set, refresh on design patterns, etc. I’m currently employed and have been for the last six years. I don’t really know if I fall in category 3 or not. What, in your opinion are the “foundational” CS skills the #3 people are missing?