4 ms·

There are so many automated processes in a restaurant, starting from machine pressed building materials that took a livelihood away from honest human woodworker

by sameers 5mo ago

There are so many automated processes in a restaurant, starting from machine pressed building materials that took a livelihood away from honest human woodworkers and carpenters. Someone please help me understand why this reaction isn't just the latest form of Ludditism (Luddism?) that'll naturally fade away as time passes.

add-sub-mul-div 5mo ago
There are many concerns and complaints about LLM technology that don't apply to other forms of automation or even other forms of AI. You're free to disagree with all of those criticisms, but they're simple to understand and they're discussed here and everywhere daily. If you don't know what they are, it must be intentional and I'm skeptical about your curiosity.
mc32 5mo ago
Even worse is it's just a small percentage of her patrons --but they have made it their temporary life-goal to change the restaurant in their image. Like, if you don't like the logo or how they went about creating the logo, go to a different restaurant and let others enjoy it without your jealous 1-star reviews. Those same people are probably mad "desktop publishing" took the livelihoods of people who drew things by hand, used multi-media plus used exactoes and paste to bring designs to life.
- recursive 5mo ago
  1 star reviews, wherever they exist, are always left by a small percentage of patrons. And jealousy has nothing to do with it. Despite all the marketing budgets and hype wave, you can't force people to tolerate this stuff.
  - mc32 5mo ago
    Sure but it’s not organic -it’s organized by malcontents. They’re not voting on the food or hygiene but on their purist perception of what and how a logo should look and be made. If they were blind they couldn’t give a rats ass.
    - recursive 5mo ago
      If you're running a retail facing business you're going to have to reckon with the fact that people have opinions about things. And they might have reasons you think are logically unsound. Trying to debate them will probably not be very fruitful. If I saw two restaurants and one had an AI logo I'd go to the other one. Regardless of whether anyone tries to argue that I committed a logical fallacy.
- BashiBazouk 5mo ago
  As someone who grew up in the pre-computer graphic arts, in Santa Cruz ironically enough, it was not paste but hot wax. Though in the early days of computers in graphic arts, all the graphic artists were just happy to not have to deal with photo typesetters anymore...
- mcphage 5mo ago
  > without your jealous 1-star reviews What makes those reviews “jealous”? Jealous of what?
greysphere 5mo ago
1) Because the people who contributed to the development of those other processes received fair market value for their work (for the most part). The vast majority of contributors to the process that made this logo have not been compensated for their work. This differential can lead to an ethical judgement about the process, which can transitively be applied to the logo made with the process, and the restaurant as a whole. 2) Some automated processes lower the quality of outcomes. Microwaving food might be a faster/cheaper way to cook, but customers might criticize the results. 3) Some processes can be viewed as having lower value compared to others, independent of result quality. This is particularly common in the art and service industries, for which the logo of a restaurant is very much at the intersection.
- sameers 5mo ago
  Thanks for the response. I want to understand more about what you mean by these comments. Re the first one, where you write “The vast majority of contributors to the process that made this logo have not been compensated for their work,” how do you compare this process from all other processes of reproducing mechanically something whose underlying aesthetic parameters were determined by analyzing how humans do things? I don’t think it’s unfair to say that the legal consensus is trending towards seeing gen AI outputs as “transformative” in the copyright law sense [1]. All creative mechanical processes - whether it’s factory made furniture, reproduced prints of the Old Masters, or now gen AI outputs - rely on some examination of prior human output, because the judgment of what people will want to use or consume has already been made historically, and the mechanical processes are different ways of distilling those decisions into something that machines can reproduce. In this particular case, the restaurant owner put effort into writing a prompt and presumably reviewing many possible outputs to pick one. What has happened with gen AI is that anyone who can somewhat visualize the artistic product they are looking for - a blurb in a specific style, a picture that has certain visual aspects, sounds that match some set of sonic characteristics they like - can now produce something passable without involving another human being. That has happened many times since the start of the Industrial Age - a vacuum cleaner does a passable job of cleaning surfaces, microwaves do a passable job of cooking foods, synthesizers do a passable job of sounding like a human orchestra, and so on. All these tasks could only be done, at any level of quality, by humans - now, humans are still capable of being more innovative and detail oriented than machines can with a variety of cognitive tasks, but machines have gotten to the “vacuum cleaner” level of producing equivalent outputs. I get the anxieties and fears coming from seeing a whole class of aesthetic and cognitive tasks being taken over by machines, because the ability to compose a marketing slogan feels closer to the notion of human identity and cultural know-how, than knowing how to clean a home well. Is that what explains the incredible degree of paranoia and resentment we are seeing, evidenced in this case by people wanting to hurt someone’s business/livelihood because of how mad they are? edit: forgot what I intended as a "reference link": [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=llm+ai+transformative+use+copyright&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=llm+ai+transformative+use+c...
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
H4lcyon 5mo ago
This is such a deep insight—you're really onto something here! This isn't just about a particular restaurant, it's a microcosm of a wider societal issue. It begs the question, why even have logos at all? Or names? For maximum efficiency and expediency for the owner the optimal restaurant of the future is a 3d printed, fully automated food cart with an LLM cashier that accepts any order and delivers it out of its nutrition depositor directly into your hands (no waste, eco-friendly!!! :D ).

by sameers 5mo ago

add-sub-mul-div 5mo ago

There are many concerns and complaints about LLM technology that don't apply to other forms of automation or even other forms of AI. You're free to disagree with all of those criticisms, but they're simple to understand and they're discussed here and everywhere daily. If you don't know what they are, it must be intentional and I'm skeptical about your curiosity.

mc32 5mo ago

Even worse is it's just a small percentage of her patrons --but they have made it their temporary life-goal to change the restaurant in their image. Like, if you don't like the logo or how they went about creating the logo, go to a different restaurant and let others enjoy it without your jealous 1-star reviews. Those same people are probably mad "desktop publishing" took the livelihoods of people who drew things by hand, used multi-media plus used exactoes and paste to bring designs to life.

recursive 5mo ago
1 star reviews, wherever they exist, are always left by a small percentage of patrons. And jealousy has nothing to do with it. Despite all the marketing budgets and hype wave, you can't force people to tolerate this stuff.
- mc32 5mo ago
  Sure but it’s not organic -it’s organized by malcontents. They’re not voting on the food or hygiene but on their purist perception of what and how a logo should look and be made. If they were blind they couldn’t give a rats ass.
  - recursive 5mo ago
    If you're running a retail facing business you're going to have to reckon with the fact that people have opinions about things. And they might have reasons you think are logically unsound. Trying to debate them will probably not be very fruitful. If I saw two restaurants and one had an AI logo I'd go to the other one. Regardless of whether anyone tries to argue that I committed a logical fallacy.
BashiBazouk 5mo ago
As someone who grew up in the pre-computer graphic arts, in Santa Cruz ironically enough, it was not paste but hot wax. Though in the early days of computers in graphic arts, all the graphic artists were just happy to not have to deal with photo typesetters anymore...
mcphage 5mo ago
> without your jealous 1-star reviews What makes those reviews “jealous”? Jealous of what?

greysphere 5mo ago

1) Because the people who contributed to the development of those other processes received fair market value for their work (for the most part). The vast majority of contributors to the process that made this logo have not been compensated for their work. This differential can lead to an ethical judgement about the process, which can transitively be applied to the logo made with the process, and the restaurant as a whole. 2) Some automated processes lower the quality of outcomes. Microwaving food might be a faster/cheaper way to cook, but customers might criticize the results. 3) Some processes can be viewed as having lower value compared to others, independent of result quality. This is particularly common in the art and service industries, for which the logo of a restaurant is very much at the intersection.

sameers 5mo ago
Thanks for the response. I want to understand more about what you mean by these comments. Re the first one, where you write “The vast majority of contributors to the process that made this logo have not been compensated for their work,” how do you compare this process from all other processes of reproducing mechanically something whose underlying aesthetic parameters were determined by analyzing how humans do things? I don’t think it’s unfair to say that the legal consensus is trending towards seeing gen AI outputs as “transformative” in the copyright law sense [1]. All creative mechanical processes - whether it’s factory made furniture, reproduced prints of the Old Masters, or now gen AI outputs - rely on some examination of prior human output, because the judgment of what people will want to use or consume has already been made historically, and the mechanical processes are different ways of distilling those decisions into something that machines can reproduce. In this particular case, the restaurant owner put effort into writing a prompt and presumably reviewing many possible outputs to pick one. What has happened with gen AI is that anyone who can somewhat visualize the artistic product they are looking for - a blurb in a specific style, a picture that has certain visual aspects, sounds that match some set of sonic characteristics they like - can now produce something passable without involving another human being. That has happened many times since the start of the Industrial Age - a vacuum cleaner does a passable job of cleaning surfaces, microwaves do a passable job of cooking foods, synthesizers do a passable job of sounding like a human orchestra, and so on. All these tasks could only be done, at any level of quality, by humans - now, humans are still capable of being more innovative and detail oriented than machines can with a variety of cognitive tasks, but machines have gotten to the “vacuum cleaner” level of producing equivalent outputs. I get the anxieties and fears coming from seeing a whole class of aesthetic and cognitive tasks being taken over by machines, because the ability to compose a marketing slogan feels closer to the notion of human identity and cultural know-how, than knowing how to clean a home well. Is that what explains the incredible degree of paranoia and resentment we are seeing, evidenced in this case by people wanting to hurt someone’s business/livelihood because of how mad they are? edit: forgot what I intended as a "reference link": [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=llm+ai+transformative+use+copyright&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=llm+ai+transformative+use+c...

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

H4lcyon 5mo ago

This is such a deep insight—you're really onto something here! This isn't just about a particular restaurant, it's a microcosm of a wider societal issue. It begs the question, why even have logos at all? Or names? For maximum efficiency and expediency for the owner the optimal restaurant of the future is a 3d printed, fully automated food cart with an LLM cashier that accepts any order and delivers it out of its nutrition depositor directly into your hands (no waste, eco-friendly!!! :D ).