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They cannot, because they are wrong. And I say this as a person who has owned no small number of fancy cars (but I got better). A new base-model Prius is absur

They cannot, because they are wrong. And I say this as a person who has owned no small number of fancy cars (but I got better). A new base-model Prius is absurdly luxurious compared to a base model car of 1975 or 1985 or even 1995. If you have lived long enough to see this change, then dropping 2x or 3x or 10x the cost of the Prius self-evidently puts you wildly beyond the point of diminishing returns. The Prius is going to have excellent climate control, and a phenomenal stereo. It's going to have adaptive cruise control, and will warn you when you drift out of your lane, or if you're about to run into an obstacle. Outside of motorsports-sorts of things, what you get out of more expensive vehicles is of limited utility. Mostly, it's just showing off. Now, if you want a track weapon, then yeah, you DO get more by spending. But for a regular person who wants to get from point A to point B comfortably and safely? The Prius is fantastic, and it's hard to justify spending more unless you're willing to admit that it's a keeping-up-with-the-Joneses kind of thing.

bigfudge 5mo ago
Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I don’t know motorsports, but in all the sports I do know it’s that way. Tennis, cycling… there are serious diminishing returns in all of those and most kit spending isn’t justified by performance as much as status or stamp collecting. So much of our lives are taken up by worrying about tiny performance differences that really don’t matter. It makes me sad for the waste of life sometimes.
- ubermonkey 5mo ago
  That's definitely true, and I have a whole other rant how my cycling pals and I love to poke fun at dudes who show up to the group ride on a brand new $10,000 bike and get dropped before the midpoint. BUT! It's easier than you think to get a point in participatory motorsports where the difference between, say, a Cayman and a Miata is something you can actively use.
  - jimbokun 5mo ago
    Curious what would you say is the sweet spot to pay for a bicycle before rapid diminishing returns? I still feel like if you go out for a long ride on a Huffy from Walmart you might hurt yourself.
    - doubled112 5mo ago
      Doesn’t have to be long ride. One time I bought a bike from Walmart and didn’t make it the 5km home before I lost a crank arm.
    - ubermonkey 5mo ago
      I only know road bikes. The groupset would drive it for me. If I was buying a new bike, and I knew I wanted to be a rider, I wouldn't mess about with anything less than Shimano 105. At Specialized, the lowest end bike with the 105 groupset on it is $2100. That's the Allez Comp, which has an aluminum frame and wheels. The next step up the ladder would be their "endurance" frame, which is carbon. It's called the Roubaix, and equipped with 105 it's $2800. Either of those would be a good first "serious" bike. If the question is more about diminishing returns, I'd offer my own bike, which is a Giant TCR Advanced. It's a couple years old. I have about $5500 in it, all in, but that includes the middle-grade SRAM electronic shifting group, carbon wheels, and a power meter. The meter is skippable if you're not doing serious training, but I did and do use power data for training. Subtract $800 if you don't want that. I honestly think spending more is just showing off. If that's your jam, knock yourself out, but it's probably not making a big difference UNLESS you need a custom frame to be comfortable.
    - bigfudge 5mo ago
      In the Uk it’s about £3-4k I think. Beyond that the differences in function are very small and would make no differences at all in an amateur road race. For time trials it’s a bit different and there clothing does make a measurable difference, although still v small relative to training harder!
  - wallst07 5mo ago
    >That's definitely true, and I have a whole other rant how my cycling pals and I love to poke fun at dudes who show up to the group ride on a brand new $10,000 bike and get dropped before the midpoint. This has nothing to do with higher end cars or bikes being "signaling" this is just an anecdote between your skill and the next level. You could say the same thing about a tour de france winner with any bike vs you and your pals. If you are competitive, you get to a point where the differences do matter.
- jimbokun 5mo ago
  In tennis I’m sure the real way to turn money into competitive gains is personalized coaching. Not sure about cycling. But a general physical trainer wouldn’t hurt.
- wallst07 5mo ago
  >Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? What, you mean like F1 where the rules of the engineering / tech of the car and shaving a second can mean 1st place vs not placing?
  - bigfudge 5mo ago
    The context was a comment about a “track weapon” and normies buying cars.
- wing-_-nuts 5mo ago
  >Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I was at a track day once, and you'd see guys rolling up with very expensive cars, and they were often clocked as noobs before anyone even spoke to them. The guy rolling up with a beat up 1st gen miata pulling a trailer with two sets of spare tires? Yeah, that guy got respect. Dude was scary quick in the turns.
  - ubermonkey 5mo ago
    Absolutely true that few folks who show up at track days or autocross sessions in high-end cars know what they're doing. But the ones that do? Ho-leee shit.
wallst07 5mo ago
How can I be wrong if this is all subjective in the first place? I've owned a number of cars, and this isn't just about luxury. It's about the quality of the drive. If you call HVAC and a Stereo luxury, then you haven't updated your definiteion relative to "1976 or 1985". Again, all purely subjective. But there is a huge idfference between a Prius and a drivers car.
- ubermonkey 5mo ago
  You appear to have some reading comprehension issues. Perhaps revisit my prior reply. What specific benefits does a "driver's car" have over a "regular" car, praytell?
  - eszed 5mo ago
    I'm not the guy you're asking, and you didn't need to be rude, but the difference is a fun driving experience. It's perfectly OK not to value that, but it's a valid priority. I'm speaking here as an NA Miata owner. My car's waaay behind your Prius on the luxury scale: it's loud on the freeway, and rattles and bumps the whole time; there's no cruise control; the roof seals leak a bit if you don't close the windows / doors in just the right way; the AC's on the fritz at the moment, and I need to sand off and re-spray some peeling clear coat that makes it look dumb. I've put more time (and actual $$) into the car than its paper value should justify, but goddamn does dropping the roof and pulling out of the driveway put a silly smile onto my face every single time, and heel-and-toeing a downshift on a twisty road to hit the next corner just right never stops being a thrill. "Upgrading" to a more expensive car would buy me the luxury and the fun together - together with a lot of engine power I don't need outside the track, and would frankly be scared of day-to-day - and (to the point of this thread) I'm kinda frugal, so I don't feel any need to do that. But "luxury" (even "comfort", sometimes) and "fun" are orthogonal values, in the automotive world, and you asked, so that's the answer.
    - ubermonkey 5mo ago
      >but the difference is a fun driving experience I'm not convinced there's a materially more-fun driving experience to be had by spending gobs more money. If you optimize for that instead of other aspects, then Prius money would get you a Miata with most of the same features and a sportier aspects. And you're still a long way from a six-figure car. That was the gist of my earliest point.

bigfudge 5mo ago

Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I don’t know motorsports, but in all the sports I do know it’s that way. Tennis, cycling… there are serious diminishing returns in all of those and most kit spending isn’t justified by performance as much as status or stamp collecting. So much of our lives are taken up by worrying about tiny performance differences that really don’t matter. It makes me sad for the waste of life sometimes.

ubermonkey 5mo ago
That's definitely true, and I have a whole other rant how my cycling pals and I love to poke fun at dudes who show up to the group ride on a brand new $10,000 bike and get dropped before the midpoint. BUT! It's easier than you think to get a point in participatory motorsports where the difference between, say, a Cayman and a Miata is something you can actively use.
- jimbokun 5mo ago
  Curious what would you say is the sweet spot to pay for a bicycle before rapid diminishing returns? I still feel like if you go out for a long ride on a Huffy from Walmart you might hurt yourself.
  - doubled112 5mo ago
    Doesn’t have to be long ride. One time I bought a bike from Walmart and didn’t make it the 5km home before I lost a crank arm.
  - ubermonkey 5mo ago
    I only know road bikes. The groupset would drive it for me. If I was buying a new bike, and I knew I wanted to be a rider, I wouldn't mess about with anything less than Shimano 105. At Specialized, the lowest end bike with the 105 groupset on it is $2100. That's the Allez Comp, which has an aluminum frame and wheels. The next step up the ladder would be their "endurance" frame, which is carbon. It's called the Roubaix, and equipped with 105 it's $2800. Either of those would be a good first "serious" bike. If the question is more about diminishing returns, I'd offer my own bike, which is a Giant TCR Advanced. It's a couple years old. I have about $5500 in it, all in, but that includes the middle-grade SRAM electronic shifting group, carbon wheels, and a power meter. The meter is skippable if you're not doing serious training, but I did and do use power data for training. Subtract $800 if you don't want that. I honestly think spending more is just showing off. If that's your jam, knock yourself out, but it's probably not making a big difference UNLESS you need a custom frame to be comfortable.
  - bigfudge 5mo ago
    In the Uk it’s about £3-4k I think. Beyond that the differences in function are very small and would make no differences at all in an amateur road race. For time trials it’s a bit different and there clothing does make a measurable difference, although still v small relative to training harder!
- wallst07 5mo ago
  >That's definitely true, and I have a whole other rant how my cycling pals and I love to poke fun at dudes who show up to the group ride on a brand new $10,000 bike and get dropped before the midpoint. This has nothing to do with higher end cars or bikes being "signaling" this is just an anecdote between your skill and the next level. You could say the same thing about a tour de france winner with any bike vs you and your pals. If you are competitive, you get to a point where the differences do matter.
jimbokun 5mo ago
In tennis I’m sure the real way to turn money into competitive gains is personalized coaching. Not sure about cycling. But a general physical trainer wouldn’t hurt.
wallst07 5mo ago
>Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? What, you mean like F1 where the rules of the engineering / tech of the car and shaving a second can mean 1st place vs not placing?
- bigfudge 5mo ago
  The context was a comment about a “track weapon” and normies buying cars.
wing-_-nuts 5mo ago
>Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I was at a track day once, and you'd see guys rolling up with very expensive cars, and they were often clocked as noobs before anyone even spoke to them. The guy rolling up with a beat up 1st gen miata pulling a trailer with two sets of spare tires? Yeah, that guy got respect. Dude was scary quick in the turns.
- ubermonkey 5mo ago
  Absolutely true that few folks who show up at track days or autocross sessions in high-end cars know what they're doing. But the ones that do? Ho-leee shit.

wallst07 5mo ago

How can I be wrong if this is all subjective in the first place? I've owned a number of cars, and this isn't just about luxury. It's about the quality of the drive. If you call HVAC and a Stereo luxury, then you haven't updated your definiteion relative to "1976 or 1985". Again, all purely subjective. But there is a huge idfference between a Prius and a drivers car.

ubermonkey 5mo ago
You appear to have some reading comprehension issues. Perhaps revisit my prior reply. What specific benefits does a "driver's car" have over a "regular" car, praytell?
- eszed 5mo ago
  I'm not the guy you're asking, and you didn't need to be rude, but the difference is a fun driving experience. It's perfectly OK not to value that, but it's a valid priority. I'm speaking here as an NA Miata owner. My car's waaay behind your Prius on the luxury scale: it's loud on the freeway, and rattles and bumps the whole time; there's no cruise control; the roof seals leak a bit if you don't close the windows / doors in just the right way; the AC's on the fritz at the moment, and I need to sand off and re-spray some peeling clear coat that makes it look dumb. I've put more time (and actual $$) into the car than its paper value should justify, but goddamn does dropping the roof and pulling out of the driveway put a silly smile onto my face every single time, and heel-and-toeing a downshift on a twisty road to hit the next corner just right never stops being a thrill. "Upgrading" to a more expensive car would buy me the luxury and the fun together - together with a lot of engine power I don't need outside the track, and would frankly be scared of day-to-day - and (to the point of this thread) I'm kinda frugal, so I don't feel any need to do that. But "luxury" (even "comfort", sometimes) and "fun" are orthogonal values, in the automotive world, and you asked, so that's the answer.
  - ubermonkey 5mo ago
    >but the difference is a fun driving experience I'm not convinced there's a materially more-fun driving experience to be had by spending gobs more money. If you optimize for that instead of other aspects, then Prius money would get you a Miata with most of the same features and a sportier aspects. And you're still a long way from a six-figure car. That was the gist of my earliest point.