5 ms·

When I started driving my car had vinyl seats that you had to peel yourself out of on a hot day, a plastic steering wheel that you could barely touch when the s

When I started driving my car had vinyl seats that you had to peel yourself out of on a hot day, a plastic steering wheel that you could barely touch when the sun was out, hand wound windows, fixed seat belts and a handbrake that barely worked. Even the cheapest car on the market feels luxurious now. In comparison the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus is marginal. Expensive cars are mostly about status signalling, we are long past good enough.

wallst07 6mo ago
>Expensive cars are mostly about status signalling Uhm, only if you are counting the most basic utility, then you're right. However if you actually enjoy driving (A->A driving), there is a HGUE difference and it's not just signaling. It's that you probably can't tell the difference, or don't care. There is no comparison between driving a new Porsche or Bentley vs a new Toyota or even a Lexus.
- hhh 6mo ago
  Can you explain why?
  - ubermonkey 6mo ago
    They cannot, because they are wrong. And I say this as a person who has owned no small number of fancy cars (but I got better). A new base-model Prius is absurdly luxurious compared to a base model car of 1975 or 1985 or even 1995. If you have lived long enough to see this change, then dropping 2x or 3x or 10x the cost of the Prius self-evidently puts you wildly beyond the point of diminishing returns. The Prius is going to have excellent climate control, and a phenomenal stereo. It's going to have adaptive cruise control, and will warn you when you drift out of your lane, or if you're about to run into an obstacle. Outside of motorsports-sorts of things, what you get out of more expensive vehicles is of limited utility. Mostly, it's just showing off. Now, if you want a track weapon, then yeah, you DO get more by spending. But for a regular person who wants to get from point A to point B comfortably and safely? The Prius is fantastic, and it's hard to justify spending more unless you're willing to admit that it's a keeping-up-with-the-Joneses kind of thing.
    - bigfudge 6mo ago
      Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I don’t know motorsports, but in all the sports I do know it’s that way. Tennis, cycling… there are serious diminishing returns in all of those and most kit spending isn’t justified by performance as much as status or stamp collecting. So much of our lives are taken up by worrying about tiny performance differences that really don’t matter. It makes me sad for the waste of life sometimes.
      - ubermonkey 6mo ago
        That's definitely true, and I have a whole other rant how my cycling pals and I love to poke fun at dudes who show up to the group ride on a brand new $10,000 bike and get dropped before the midpoint. BUT! It's easier than you think to get a point in participatory motorsports where the difference between, say, a Cayman and a Miata is something you can actively use.
        jimbokun 6mo ago
        Curious what would you say is the sweet spot to pay for a bicycle before rapid diminishing returns? I still feel like if you go out for a long ride on a Huffy from Walmart you might hurt yourself.
        doubled112 6mo ago
        Doesn’t have to be long ride. One time I bought a bike from Walmart and didn’t make it the 5km home before I lost a crank arm.
        ubermonkey 6mo ago
        I only know road bikes. The groupset would drive it for me. If I was buying a new bike, and I knew I wanted to be a rider, I wouldn't mess about with anything less than Shimano 105. At Specialized, the lowest end bike with the 105 groupset on it is $2100. That's the Allez Comp, which has an aluminum frame and wheels. The next step up the ladder would be their "endurance" frame, which is carbon. It's called the Roubaix, and equipped with 105 it's $2800. Either of those would be a good first "serious" bike. If the question is more about diminishing returns, I'd offer my own bike, which is a Giant TCR Advanced. It's a couple years old. I have about $5500 in it, all in, but that includes the middle-grade SRAM electronic shifting group, carbon wheels, and a power meter. The meter is skippable if you're not doing serious training, but I did and do use power data for training. Subtract $800 if you don't want that. I honestly think spending more is just showing off. If that's your jam, knock yourself out, but it's probably not making a big difference UNLESS you need a custom frame to be comfortable.
  - wallst07 6mo ago
    I'm replying to the comment that expensive cars are mostly signaling. And it's false. For people who don't like cars (/r/f*kcars is strong on HN) I understand their viewpoint. For people who LOVE cars, we see the details and appreciate the engineering, craftsmanship and art. Will a Prius get you a->b the same as a "signaling car", yes. But for the hobbiest, it's the journey not the destination.
- neogodless 6mo ago
  If you compare a Porsche SUV to a Lexus SUV, there's almost no difference. If you compare a Porsche Boxster to a Toyota, the Porsche is much more of a driver's car and if you're the right kind of driver, there's simply no comparison. (We'll ignore the FT86 / 86 for the moment ;)!) If you buy a Bentley... you probably pay someone else to drive it for you. Something to remember in all of this is hedonic adaptation. Buying a Porsche will feel in the moment different from buying a Toyota. But a few months later, you will be driving "your car" and much of the time, you'll be thinking about driving, traffic, signs, speeds, lights, pedestrians, bikers, the song you're playing, your next turn, a dozen other things. For the most part, you won't be thinking about how much "better" your car is in comparison to the alternative. You'll be used to it. You'll have adapted. Different cars are certainly different for a personality who is drawn to the merits of automobiles. My favorite car was a $20K used Mazda 3 hatchback. I liked it much better than some much more luxurious cars (including the Polestar 2 Performance Plus I have now.) But that wasn't because of luxuries (the Mazda had luxury and heated seats and climate control and swivel headlights and adaptive cruise control and... and...) but because I enjoyed pressing the clutch, pulling the gear lever into second, releasing the clutch, putting my foot down, and steering through a corner. (The Polestar has some merits as well, but they are very different merits.) The Mazda 3 had a whopping ~186 HP... but it was fun. (Don't get me started on my 2007 Honda Fit... oh the memories!)
  - wallst07 6mo ago
    I've owned or driven cars from almost every auto-manufacturer found in the US/EU. I can clearly say (subjectively) there is a HUGE difference between a Porsche Cayenne GTS, Turbo S or Turbo GT than Any F-Sport Lexus. Sorry, not the same league. As far as the adaptation, maybe. But driving a Toyota never brought a smile on a twisty, ever. But it was reliable and always started :) The Porsche, every time, it never gets old [feeling] after many years.
- Earw0rm 6mo ago
  When you actually get to drive it as it can be. Maybe you live somewhere that's possible, or not too far from such a somewhere. Rare to find such places within 50 miles of a big city though, unless you're in Germany and have the autobahn. I suspect most premium cars get to spend a tiny fraction of their mileage doing the kind of driving where they'd measurably beat a mid-market model.
- wing-_-nuts 6mo ago
  Bah. I've driven luxury bmws, porches, and corvettes. You want to know what my daily driver is? A miata. Those other cars are faster, yes, but nothing else makes driving quite the occasion that a miata does. You don't have to go expensive to buy something you actually enjoy driving.
  - wallst07 6mo ago
    Miata is the exception, it is fun to drive... and it was engineered to be that way.
    - wing-_-nuts 6mo ago
      Yep, I've always said it's much more fun to drive a 'slow car fast' than a fast car slow. I drove a friends suped up vette and I could barely breathe on the gas pedal without breaking laws. Meanwhile I can rip my miata to redline in 3rd gear and not raise too much suspicion getting on the interstate.
- Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
  I'm curious what the breakdown is. I definitely know people who buy nice cars just for the status aspect. My neighbor bought a Porsche recently and I was talking to them about which fun roads they've driven in around here (I bike and ride motorcycles so I've been on a lot of fun backroads) and they said they've only tried one road once. I ended up asking them what they do with their Porsche and apparently it's mostly going to car meetups and saying that they have a Porsche and feeling good about owning a Porsche. So yeah as a former Miata owner I know that expensive cars tend to just be more fun to drive but if you live in an HCOL area with people who are highly leveraged, you'll find a lot of people who buy nice cars only for status signaling. I suspect in HCOL areas more do it for status than the actual love of driving. (FWIW I find this in a lot of hobbies. I can ride a loaner bike faster than a lot of riders around here decked out in fancy kit, clips, and the best groupsets. A lot of people in HCOL areas engage in hobbies as an excuse to nurse a shopping and status addiction.) Which goes back to the root comment that a lot of tech people highly leverage their life because it enables them to have a lifestyle and status that they think they need or deserve.
davemp 6mo ago
[dead]
anticorporate 6mo ago
I'm perhaps pathologically frugal myself. I've found for myself the best compromise is to force yourself to pick at least one feature other than cost. We've got a 17 year old Toyota Yaris that I tell myself is for fuel efficiency, and an old Ford Ranger because I wanted at least one of our vehicles to be able to move sheet goods. Technically I could probably walk onto most any lot and pay cash for whatever I wanted, but I know there's zero chance I'll ever do that.
- welldoneator 6mo ago
  With cars if you wanted to bias yourself towards newer cars you could prioritize safety features alongside cost. A Yaris and a Ranger (who doesn’t love a Ranger!) are going to serve you well, but they’re not going to have the active and passive safety features of a more modern car. Put next to cost it makes it a bit harder to perform maladaptive frugality.

wallst07 6mo ago

>Expensive cars are mostly about status signalling Uhm, only if you are counting the most basic utility, then you're right. However if you actually enjoy driving (A->A driving), there is a HGUE difference and it's not just signaling. It's that you probably can't tell the difference, or don't care. There is no comparison between driving a new Porsche or Bentley vs a new Toyota or even a Lexus.

hhh 6mo ago
Can you explain why?
- ubermonkey 6mo ago
  They cannot, because they are wrong. And I say this as a person who has owned no small number of fancy cars (but I got better). A new base-model Prius is absurdly luxurious compared to a base model car of 1975 or 1985 or even 1995. If you have lived long enough to see this change, then dropping 2x or 3x or 10x the cost of the Prius self-evidently puts you wildly beyond the point of diminishing returns. The Prius is going to have excellent climate control, and a phenomenal stereo. It's going to have adaptive cruise control, and will warn you when you drift out of your lane, or if you're about to run into an obstacle. Outside of motorsports-sorts of things, what you get out of more expensive vehicles is of limited utility. Mostly, it's just showing off. Now, if you want a track weapon, then yeah, you DO get more by spending. But for a regular person who wants to get from point A to point B comfortably and safely? The Prius is fantastic, and it's hard to justify spending more unless you're willing to admit that it's a keeping-up-with-the-Joneses kind of thing.
  - bigfudge 6mo ago
    Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I don’t know motorsports, but in all the sports I do know it’s that way. Tennis, cycling… there are serious diminishing returns in all of those and most kit spending isn’t justified by performance as much as status or stamp collecting. So much of our lives are taken up by worrying about tiny performance differences that really don’t matter. It makes me sad for the waste of life sometimes.
    - ubermonkey 6mo ago
      That's definitely true, and I have a whole other rant how my cycling pals and I love to poke fun at dudes who show up to the group ride on a brand new $10,000 bike and get dropped before the midpoint. BUT! It's easier than you think to get a point in participatory motorsports where the difference between, say, a Cayman and a Miata is something you can actively use.
      - jimbokun 6mo ago
        Curious what would you say is the sweet spot to pay for a bicycle before rapid diminishing returns? I still feel like if you go out for a long ride on a Huffy from Walmart you might hurt yourself.
        doubled112 6mo ago
        Doesn’t have to be long ride. One time I bought a bike from Walmart and didn’t make it the 5km home before I lost a crank arm.
        ubermonkey 6mo ago
        I only know road bikes. The groupset would drive it for me. If I was buying a new bike, and I knew I wanted to be a rider, I wouldn't mess about with anything less than Shimano 105. At Specialized, the lowest end bike with the 105 groupset on it is $2100. That's the Allez Comp, which has an aluminum frame and wheels. The next step up the ladder would be their "endurance" frame, which is carbon. It's called the Roubaix, and equipped with 105 it's $2800. Either of those would be a good first "serious" bike. If the question is more about diminishing returns, I'd offer my own bike, which is a Giant TCR Advanced. It's a couple years old. I have about $5500 in it, all in, but that includes the middle-grade SRAM electronic shifting group, carbon wheels, and a power meter. The meter is skippable if you're not doing serious training, but I did and do use power data for training. Subtract $800 if you don't want that. I honestly think spending more is just showing off. If that's your jam, knock yourself out, but it's probably not making a big difference UNLESS you need a custom frame to be comfortable.
- wallst07 6mo ago
  I'm replying to the comment that expensive cars are mostly signaling. And it's false. For people who don't like cars (/r/f*kcars is strong on HN) I understand their viewpoint. For people who LOVE cars, we see the details and appreciate the engineering, craftsmanship and art. Will a Prius get you a->b the same as a "signaling car", yes. But for the hobbiest, it's the journey not the destination.
neogodless 6mo ago
If you compare a Porsche SUV to a Lexus SUV, there's almost no difference. If you compare a Porsche Boxster to a Toyota, the Porsche is much more of a driver's car and if you're the right kind of driver, there's simply no comparison. (We'll ignore the FT86 / 86 for the moment ;)!) If you buy a Bentley... you probably pay someone else to drive it for you. Something to remember in all of this is hedonic adaptation. Buying a Porsche will feel in the moment different from buying a Toyota. But a few months later, you will be driving "your car" and much of the time, you'll be thinking about driving, traffic, signs, speeds, lights, pedestrians, bikers, the song you're playing, your next turn, a dozen other things. For the most part, you won't be thinking about how much "better" your car is in comparison to the alternative. You'll be used to it. You'll have adapted. Different cars are certainly different for a personality who is drawn to the merits of automobiles. My favorite car was a $20K used Mazda 3 hatchback. I liked it much better than some much more luxurious cars (including the Polestar 2 Performance Plus I have now.) But that wasn't because of luxuries (the Mazda had luxury and heated seats and climate control and swivel headlights and adaptive cruise control and... and...) but because I enjoyed pressing the clutch, pulling the gear lever into second, releasing the clutch, putting my foot down, and steering through a corner. (The Polestar has some merits as well, but they are very different merits.) The Mazda 3 had a whopping ~186 HP... but it was fun. (Don't get me started on my 2007 Honda Fit... oh the memories!)
- wallst07 6mo ago
  I've owned or driven cars from almost every auto-manufacturer found in the US/EU. I can clearly say (subjectively) there is a HUGE difference between a Porsche Cayenne GTS, Turbo S or Turbo GT than Any F-Sport Lexus. Sorry, not the same league. As far as the adaptation, maybe. But driving a Toyota never brought a smile on a twisty, ever. But it was reliable and always started :) The Porsche, every time, it never gets old [feeling] after many years.
Earw0rm 6mo ago
When you actually get to drive it as it can be. Maybe you live somewhere that's possible, or not too far from such a somewhere. Rare to find such places within 50 miles of a big city though, unless you're in Germany and have the autobahn. I suspect most premium cars get to spend a tiny fraction of their mileage doing the kind of driving where they'd measurably beat a mid-market model.
wing-_-nuts 6mo ago
Bah. I've driven luxury bmws, porches, and corvettes. You want to know what my daily driver is? A miata. Those other cars are faster, yes, but nothing else makes driving quite the occasion that a miata does. You don't have to go expensive to buy something you actually enjoy driving.
- wallst07 6mo ago
  Miata is the exception, it is fun to drive... and it was engineered to be that way.
  - wing-_-nuts 6mo ago
    Yep, I've always said it's much more fun to drive a 'slow car fast' than a fast car slow. I drove a friends suped up vette and I could barely breathe on the gas pedal without breaking laws. Meanwhile I can rip my miata to redline in 3rd gear and not raise too much suspicion getting on the interstate.
Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
I'm curious what the breakdown is. I definitely know people who buy nice cars just for the status aspect. My neighbor bought a Porsche recently and I was talking to them about which fun roads they've driven in around here (I bike and ride motorcycles so I've been on a lot of fun backroads) and they said they've only tried one road once. I ended up asking them what they do with their Porsche and apparently it's mostly going to car meetups and saying that they have a Porsche and feeling good about owning a Porsche. So yeah as a former Miata owner I know that expensive cars tend to just be more fun to drive but if you live in an HCOL area with people who are highly leveraged, you'll find a lot of people who buy nice cars only for status signaling. I suspect in HCOL areas more do it for status than the actual love of driving. (FWIW I find this in a lot of hobbies. I can ride a loaner bike faster than a lot of riders around here decked out in fancy kit, clips, and the best groupsets. A lot of people in HCOL areas engage in hobbies as an excuse to nurse a shopping and status addiction.) Which goes back to the root comment that a lot of tech people highly leverage their life because it enables them to have a lifestyle and status that they think they need or deserve.

davemp 6mo ago

[dead]

anticorporate 6mo ago

I'm perhaps pathologically frugal myself. I've found for myself the best compromise is to force yourself to pick at least one feature other than cost. We've got a 17 year old Toyota Yaris that I tell myself is for fuel efficiency, and an old Ford Ranger because I wanted at least one of our vehicles to be able to move sheet goods. Technically I could probably walk onto most any lot and pay cash for whatever I wanted, but I know there's zero chance I'll ever do that.

welldoneator 6mo ago
With cars if you wanted to bias yourself towards newer cars you could prioritize safety features alongside cost. A Yaris and a Ranger (who doesn’t love a Ranger!) are going to serve you well, but they’re not going to have the active and passive safety features of a more modern car. Put next to cost it makes it a bit harder to perform maladaptive frugality.