7 ms·

It's easy for others to say, "oy, you coward, you should have blown the whistle" from the comfort their web browsers. For what it's worth, I had a security clea

by bityard 6mo ago

It's easy for others to say, "oy, you coward, you should have blown the whistle" from the comfort their web browsers. For what it's worth, I had a security clearance in a previous job (not as high as yours, I'm sure) and I understand where you are coming from. I would have likely done the same as you. Especially with my career and the ability to provide for my family on the line.

eunit250 6mo ago
It's probably different if you have a family, but I have quit jobs over moral implications no problem. Most people have pretty flimsy morals and will do anything to keep the money rolling in.
- nightfly 6mo ago
  Most people have no safety net and if the money stops rolling in their life is effectively ruined for several years
  - deaux 6mo ago
    Most people in the world? Potentially, though I doubt the "life ruined for years" part holds for >50%. Most people on HN? Definite no. Most people on HN who work in roles where they're exposed to such mass surveillance or other evil at scale (like Meta)? Absolutely not.
    - dylan604 6mo ago
      You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. There are plenty of people in tech that do not live in SV or work for a FAANG. You're failing victim to the echo chamber if you think everyone here is a well paid bit banger
      - deaux 6mo ago
        - There are people with $1M+ salaries who live pay check to pay check. This is a choice. A lot of HNers fall under this category. - A lot of people who are actually poor and live pay check to pay check aren't ruined for years if they lose their job. Because the nature of their work and lack of career usually means they're unstable and replaceable "commodity" jobs in the first place. - Almost everyone who is in a position to be exposed to evil at scale as a tech worker, is among the top 5% earners in the world. I'm being very conservative there, it's likely top 1%.
        lmz 6mo ago
        Top 5% earnings only buffer you against job loss if you don't have top 5% expenditures. The hedonic treadmill is real.
        deaux 6mo ago
        That's the whole point. That treadmill is purely for selfish personal satisfaction. This thread was about the ability to quit jobs over ethics. Those people absolutely can get off it and cut their expenditures, without their life being ruined for several years for any reasonable definition of "ruined".
      - jjav 6mo ago
        > You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. Well you don't have to live anywhere near paycheck to paycheck to be intimidated. If you're stonewalled from employment, you're in trouble unless you are so fabulously wealthy that you can afford to never work again.
    - opan 6mo ago
      I've seen [alleged] homeless people post on here before. Do you really need more than an interest in tech (and an internet connection) to read/post here?
      - archimedes237 6mo ago
        Exactly. I love reading on this site . Written while im on the public bus.
      - deaux 6mo ago
        I've seen them too, and I see no reason to question them. I'm sure there's indeed homeless people on here. I also have very good reason to believe they're a small minority. Try sample 100 profiles, especially of frequent commenters (not in "Get hired" threads). It is by its nature and origin an incredibly SV-dominated group. You and me are outliers.
    - htek 6mo ago
      I took far too many ethics and philosophy electives to have a well-paying career in computing. I should've just taken the one required ethics course for the major and gone to work for the "kinetic delivery system" company that tried to recruit me.
  - shrubby 6mo ago
    I always keep coming back to the Nixon years when basic income was first approved in the senate by the republicans and stopped in the house by democrats. What a different world we'd be living in, if the (back then, at least supposedly) greatest democracy would have shown the way to a universal safety net. How fucking sad that we ended in a world where the finders of flaws or zerodays are being suppressed and prosecuted, instead of allowing them to make the world a better place. A handful of narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths now hold almost all power with these structures. At least now the pretense of democracy is dropped.
- Forgeties79 6mo ago
  > It's probably different if you have a family It truly is. I can’t emphasize this enough.
- fwipsy 6mo ago
  How do you know how many people would quit? Even if 99% of the US would refuse to work for the NSA, the last 1% would be plenty for the job.
  - dbdr 6mo ago
    Stopping the action is not the only reason to quit a job you deeply disapprove of. There's a related anecdote in the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. From my memory: a man working for the US embassy in Japan was unhappy and doing psychotherapy. The therapist was trying to see if his issues with his boss had something to do with his relationship to authority, digging into his relationship to his father, etc. Turns out, he was just in deep disagreement with the policies he had to enforce, and quitting solved the issue. Quitting a job you think is harmful (or even maybe meaningless) can be good for yourself, in addition to the morality question.
- dfxm12 6mo ago
  It's a systemic issue if we can't afford to have morals. In the US, It's not just a paycheck you lose with your job. Many benefits are tied to employment. It's hard enough to quit a job (for any reason) in order to take time to find a better one. If you're whistleblowing it's even worse, as that generally invites a long legal battle & having future potential employers reluctant to hire you... Of course, seeing what happened with Snowden or even other whistleblowers more recently, like Suchir Balaji or John Barnett, makes it clear that more than financial security is at stake & acts as a chilling effect.
Teever 6mo ago
The mistake wasn't in not blowing the whistle but it was taking a job with this kind of organization in the first place. Yeah the solution is to not put yourself into a position where you need to make these choices. The fuel for the fire that are organizations like the CIA are people who don't have moral qualms or who have flexible ones. The less people who work for these organizations the better.
- anonymousiam 6mo ago
  I never worked directly for them. I was a contractor. If all the people of conscience quit, they are left with a workforce without a conscience, which I guess is pretty much what they have now, at least in certain areas.
  - Teever 6mo ago
    Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That’s a good thing. It isn’t really a radical or counterintuitive thing to say ‘don’t do evil work for evil people.’ People who give mealy mouth excuses like ‘I was just following orders’ or ‘I was just a contractor’ are part of the problem.
    - try_the_bass 6mo ago
      > Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That... Isn't really how that works in the real world, though. What happens when people with conscience leave legitimate institutions is that they lose legitimacy. Now you have a legitimate institution with power and no conscience, and a myriad of non-legitimate institutions with little power and some conscience. This is a strictly worse situation to be in.
      - Teever 6mo ago
        That sounds great in theory, but how did it work out in practice? It's been thirteen years since Snowden, and twenty years since Mark Klein, and there have been no real reforms in the system, people continue to work for them, and with them and it's only gotten worse. The course of action that you suggest is exactly what has lead America into a Mad King scenario with big tech oligarchs and theocratic running the show with China on the cusp of becoming the world hegemon. People keep chasing that carrot, keep working for the man and the end result is that they to chase that carrot a little bit harder, burning them out until the man replaces them with someone new just as eager to chase that carrot a little harder. And all along the way the noose around all of us tightens a little bit more the temperature outside gets a little bit hotter and America's grip on the world weakens. Where does this go?
calvinmorrison 6mo ago
Or just like, don't work for the government. simple as. Some people have morals, some people want money. It's OK. We get it, AI startup engineer hell bent on destroying thought work. We get it rastifarian bomb builder for the US navy. we get it All American who works for the chinese virualogy lab. it's just work its not your life. just do whatever and make money.

by bityard 6mo ago

eunit250 6mo ago

It's probably different if you have a family, but I have quit jobs over moral implications no problem. Most people have pretty flimsy morals and will do anything to keep the money rolling in.

nightfly 6mo ago
Most people have no safety net and if the money stops rolling in their life is effectively ruined for several years
- deaux 6mo ago
  Most people in the world? Potentially, though I doubt the "life ruined for years" part holds for >50%. Most people on HN? Definite no. Most people on HN who work in roles where they're exposed to such mass surveillance or other evil at scale (like Meta)? Absolutely not.
  - dylan604 6mo ago
    You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. There are plenty of people in tech that do not live in SV or work for a FAANG. You're failing victim to the echo chamber if you think everyone here is a well paid bit banger
    - deaux 6mo ago
      - There are people with $1M+ salaries who live pay check to pay check. This is a choice. A lot of HNers fall under this category. - A lot of people who are actually poor and live pay check to pay check aren't ruined for years if they lose their job. Because the nature of their work and lack of career usually means they're unstable and replaceable "commodity" jobs in the first place. - Almost everyone who is in a position to be exposed to evil at scale as a tech worker, is among the top 5% earners in the world. I'm being very conservative there, it's likely top 1%.
      - lmz 6mo ago
        Top 5% earnings only buffer you against job loss if you don't have top 5% expenditures. The hedonic treadmill is real.
        deaux 6mo ago
        That's the whole point. That treadmill is purely for selfish personal satisfaction. This thread was about the ability to quit jobs over ethics. Those people absolutely can get off it and cut their expenditures, without their life being ruined for several years for any reasonable definition of "ruined".
    - jjav 6mo ago
      > You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. Well you don't have to live anywhere near paycheck to paycheck to be intimidated. If you're stonewalled from employment, you're in trouble unless you are so fabulously wealthy that you can afford to never work again.
  - opan 6mo ago
    I've seen [alleged] homeless people post on here before. Do you really need more than an interest in tech (and an internet connection) to read/post here?
    - archimedes237 6mo ago
      Exactly. I love reading on this site . Written while im on the public bus.
    - deaux 6mo ago
      I've seen them too, and I see no reason to question them. I'm sure there's indeed homeless people on here. I also have very good reason to believe they're a small minority. Try sample 100 profiles, especially of frequent commenters (not in "Get hired" threads). It is by its nature and origin an incredibly SV-dominated group. You and me are outliers.
  - htek 6mo ago
    I took far too many ethics and philosophy electives to have a well-paying career in computing. I should've just taken the one required ethics course for the major and gone to work for the "kinetic delivery system" company that tried to recruit me.
- shrubby 6mo ago
  I always keep coming back to the Nixon years when basic income was first approved in the senate by the republicans and stopped in the house by democrats. What a different world we'd be living in, if the (back then, at least supposedly) greatest democracy would have shown the way to a universal safety net. How fucking sad that we ended in a world where the finders of flaws or zerodays are being suppressed and prosecuted, instead of allowing them to make the world a better place. A handful of narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths now hold almost all power with these structures. At least now the pretense of democracy is dropped.
Forgeties79 6mo ago
> It's probably different if you have a family It truly is. I can’t emphasize this enough.
fwipsy 6mo ago
How do you know how many people would quit? Even if 99% of the US would refuse to work for the NSA, the last 1% would be plenty for the job.
- dbdr 6mo ago
  Stopping the action is not the only reason to quit a job you deeply disapprove of. There's a related anecdote in the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. From my memory: a man working for the US embassy in Japan was unhappy and doing psychotherapy. The therapist was trying to see if his issues with his boss had something to do with his relationship to authority, digging into his relationship to his father, etc. Turns out, he was just in deep disagreement with the policies he had to enforce, and quitting solved the issue. Quitting a job you think is harmful (or even maybe meaningless) can be good for yourself, in addition to the morality question.
dfxm12 6mo ago
It's a systemic issue if we can't afford to have morals. In the US, It's not just a paycheck you lose with your job. Many benefits are tied to employment. It's hard enough to quit a job (for any reason) in order to take time to find a better one. If you're whistleblowing it's even worse, as that generally invites a long legal battle & having future potential employers reluctant to hire you... Of course, seeing what happened with Snowden or even other whistleblowers more recently, like Suchir Balaji or John Barnett, makes it clear that more than financial security is at stake & acts as a chilling effect.

Teever 6mo ago

The mistake wasn't in not blowing the whistle but it was taking a job with this kind of organization in the first place. Yeah the solution is to not put yourself into a position where you need to make these choices. The fuel for the fire that are organizations like the CIA are people who don't have moral qualms or who have flexible ones. The less people who work for these organizations the better.

anonymousiam 6mo ago
I never worked directly for them. I was a contractor. If all the people of conscience quit, they are left with a workforce without a conscience, which I guess is pretty much what they have now, at least in certain areas.
- Teever 6mo ago
  Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That’s a good thing. It isn’t really a radical or counterintuitive thing to say ‘don’t do evil work for evil people.’ People who give mealy mouth excuses like ‘I was just following orders’ or ‘I was just a contractor’ are part of the problem.
  - try_the_bass 6mo ago
    > Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That... Isn't really how that works in the real world, though. What happens when people with conscience leave legitimate institutions is that they lose legitimacy. Now you have a legitimate institution with power and no conscience, and a myriad of non-legitimate institutions with little power and some conscience. This is a strictly worse situation to be in.
    - Teever 6mo ago
      That sounds great in theory, but how did it work out in practice? It's been thirteen years since Snowden, and twenty years since Mark Klein, and there have been no real reforms in the system, people continue to work for them, and with them and it's only gotten worse. The course of action that you suggest is exactly what has lead America into a Mad King scenario with big tech oligarchs and theocratic running the show with China on the cusp of becoming the world hegemon. People keep chasing that carrot, keep working for the man and the end result is that they to chase that carrot a little bit harder, burning them out until the man replaces them with someone new just as eager to chase that carrot a little harder. And all along the way the noose around all of us tightens a little bit more the temperature outside gets a little bit hotter and America's grip on the world weakens. Where does this go?

calvinmorrison 6mo ago

Or just like, don't work for the government. simple as. Some people have morals, some people want money. It's OK. We get it, AI startup engineer hell bent on destroying thought work. We get it rastifarian bomb builder for the US navy. we get it All American who works for the chinese virualogy lab. it's just work its not your life. just do whatever and make money.