3 ms·

The burden of proof is on the claimaint, you. Don't push your due dilligence onto others.

Daishiman 6mo ago
If I were discussing a formal argument in debate club sure. I don't do googling for others when the first 10 results in google for this is either source articles from The Economist of a half dozen forum threads commenting the same thing for the past 5 years.
- Saline9515 6mo ago
  I asked you for a single article representing your claim, since it is so common it should be easy to find? It's as ridiculous as if I declare that the earth is flat, but provide no explanation since "you can google".
culi 6mo ago
Imagine if you had to provide a source every time you claimed The Holocaust happened.
- Saline9515 6mo ago
  Yes, of course, the perceived editorial line of the Economist is similar to the Holocaust. Also, it is quite easy to do in the later case, you can link the relevant wikipedia article.
- bit-anarchist 6mo ago
  Depends if we are in agreement. If we are, no. If we aren't and we want to have a sincere discussion, yes. If all you do is come, claim that the Holocaust happened in a certain way, and hoped to call it a day without any proof nor evidence, that's just a demonstration of your own bad faith and intolerance. Luckily for many, the internet is filled with evidence about it, so any good faith argumenter should have little difficuty doing so. The only people averted to do so are people not interested in a proper discussion, at which point, they should just leave rather than spout baseless claims. Even if their conclusion is correct, poor arguments do nothing more than hurt the pursuit of the truth (normally for spreading intolerance, which helped the Holocaust happen).
- ch4s3 6mo ago
  What a weird argument to make.
  - culi 6mo ago
    Common knowledge shouldn't need a source. Asking for one is a technique used to dissuade further discussion. If someone has evidence contrary to the common knowledge then they should be the one to produce that evidence
    - bit-anarchist 6mo ago
      If by "common knowledge" you mean "previously agreed between the sides", sure. But that is not the case, evident by the reply thread. If by "common knowledge" you mean "common sense", I refer you to search about the appeal to common sense fallacy. Here's a link: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Common-Sense https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-... Nothing can dissuade discussions more than fallacies.
      - culi 6mo ago
        Buddy, they literally had a magazine cover with "GREAT FALL OF CHINA" as the heading. Anyone who actually reads The Economist is well aware of the constant articles about China's imminent collapse. What's happening in this thread is a bunch of people who clearly don't read it very often are asking for proof of something that is obvious to anyone who does actually read but is hard to prove without a formal study. I can, and have, link(ed) you many articles but no single article will change your mind anyways. If you genuinely cared you would just google it yourself. But you don't. You are a time suck. There is nothing to be gotten from this exchange except to waste energy into the void of the internet. (and you give anarchism a bad name. You're probably more similar to ancaps then you'll ever admit)
        bit-anarchist 6mo ago
        I have tackled the cover in another comment, so I'll skip it here. You speak for others as if you are a representative for them. Somehow, it doesn't go through your mind that other people might have different readings and perspectives from articles or papers, and you default to accusing them of just not reading. A view that's possibly amplified by certain social bubbles. Evidence of that lies in your, basically gratuitous, accusation of sinophobia. This ties to the "common knowledge" issue. Due to diversity, there is no such thing as objective "common knowledge", thus it is always subjective to social groups. Best case scenario, appeal to common knowledge is simply an intolerant way of uncritically asserting your biases onto others, who might not even belong to any of your social groups. Worst case scenario, it's used by bad actors to gaslight their way through a discussion. Someone asked you to fetch the current month's article (not a study) to use as a sample. Instead of just quickly googling and linking it, allowing the conversation to go forward, you kept trying to dismiss and avoid doing your due dilligence. Only after many posts, you managed to post a analyzable sample. If that's not a waste of energy, I don't know what is. If you genuinely believe this was a total waste of energy, you could've just left. If your arguments were solid, no further comments would take them down (that is, if you made actual arguments, not just claims before). I'm not here to change your mind (specially given how you treat all your proof as "common knowledge", which indicates that is so enshrined in your perspective, that only a serious event can actually change), but to either: present a point or debunk bogus/baseless claims (primarily this one). Other people can read through our posts and reach their own conclusion.

If I were discussing a formal argument in debate club sure. I don't do googling for others when the first 10 results in google for this is either source articles from The Economist of a half dozen forum threads commenting the same thing for the past 5 years.

Saline9515 6mo ago
I asked you for a single article representing your claim, since it is so common it should be easy to find? It's as ridiculous as if I declare that the earth is flat, but provide no explanation since "you can google".

culi 6mo ago

Imagine if you had to provide a source every time you claimed The Holocaust happened.

Saline9515 6mo ago
Yes, of course, the perceived editorial line of the Economist is similar to the Holocaust. Also, it is quite easy to do in the later case, you can link the relevant wikipedia article.
bit-anarchist 6mo ago
Depends if we are in agreement. If we are, no. If we aren't and we want to have a sincere discussion, yes. If all you do is come, claim that the Holocaust happened in a certain way, and hoped to call it a day without any proof nor evidence, that's just a demonstration of your own bad faith and intolerance. Luckily for many, the internet is filled with evidence about it, so any good faith argumenter should have little difficuty doing so. The only people averted to do so are people not interested in a proper discussion, at which point, they should just leave rather than spout baseless claims. Even if their conclusion is correct, poor arguments do nothing more than hurt the pursuit of the truth (normally for spreading intolerance, which helped the Holocaust happen).
ch4s3 6mo ago
What a weird argument to make.
- culi 6mo ago
  Common knowledge shouldn't need a source. Asking for one is a technique used to dissuade further discussion. If someone has evidence contrary to the common knowledge then they should be the one to produce that evidence
  - bit-anarchist 6mo ago
    If by "common knowledge" you mean "previously agreed between the sides", sure. But that is not the case, evident by the reply thread. If by "common knowledge" you mean "common sense", I refer you to search about the appeal to common sense fallacy. Here's a link: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Common-Sense https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-... Nothing can dissuade discussions more than fallacies.
    - culi 6mo ago
      Buddy, they literally had a magazine cover with "GREAT FALL OF CHINA" as the heading. Anyone who actually reads The Economist is well aware of the constant articles about China's imminent collapse. What's happening in this thread is a bunch of people who clearly don't read it very often are asking for proof of something that is obvious to anyone who does actually read but is hard to prove without a formal study. I can, and have, link(ed) you many articles but no single article will change your mind anyways. If you genuinely cared you would just google it yourself. But you don't. You are a time suck. There is nothing to be gotten from this exchange except to waste energy into the void of the internet. (and you give anarchism a bad name. You're probably more similar to ancaps then you'll ever admit)
      - bit-anarchist 6mo ago
        I have tackled the cover in another comment, so I'll skip it here. You speak for others as if you are a representative for them. Somehow, it doesn't go through your mind that other people might have different readings and perspectives from articles or papers, and you default to accusing them of just not reading. A view that's possibly amplified by certain social bubbles. Evidence of that lies in your, basically gratuitous, accusation of sinophobia. This ties to the "common knowledge" issue. Due to diversity, there is no such thing as objective "common knowledge", thus it is always subjective to social groups. Best case scenario, appeal to common knowledge is simply an intolerant way of uncritically asserting your biases onto others, who might not even belong to any of your social groups. Worst case scenario, it's used by bad actors to gaslight their way through a discussion. Someone asked you to fetch the current month's article (not a study) to use as a sample. Instead of just quickly googling and linking it, allowing the conversation to go forward, you kept trying to dismiss and avoid doing your due dilligence. Only after many posts, you managed to post a analyzable sample. If that's not a waste of energy, I don't know what is. If you genuinely believe this was a total waste of energy, you could've just left. If your arguments were solid, no further comments would take them down (that is, if you made actual arguments, not just claims before). I'm not here to change your mind (specially given how you treat all your proof as "common knowledge", which indicates that is so enshrined in your perspective, that only a serious event can actually change), but to either: present a point or debunk bogus/baseless claims (primarily this one). Other people can read through our posts and reach their own conclusion.