6 ms·

I think there are some professions where Unions make sense, like for Pilots and Teachers, as a 30 years of experience teacher can be replaced with a 2 years of

I think there are some professions where Unions make sense, like for Pilots and Teachers, as a 30 years of experience teacher can be replaced with a 2 years of experience teacher, so we need unions to protect the experienced Teacher or Pilot, but when it comes to what MTG Arena does, I dont see much value on the union existing, perhaps someone can provide some valuable insight

hellcow 5mo ago
Presumably employees were unhappy. It's rare that unions spring up when everyone is treated well and paid fairly. I can't speak to this particular group, but Hasbro (parent company of WOTC) has been a horribly short-sighted steward of Magic and DND, so perhaps this will encourage other WOTC divisions to unionize as well.
kaoD 5mo ago
Well, unions do not exist to keep people entrenched on their jobs. That perspective is propaganda (by you-know-who). There's not a lot I can say that isn't covered in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union
matthewkayin 5mo ago
Well generally the workers who make these games actually care about the game and want to make a good experience for the players. The execs however, only care about how much money they can make off of the product. Having a union (assuming that the union is run well), - ensures a better product for customers - ensures better working conditions for workers - ensures better pay and benefits from workers (at least in programming roles, the games industry is generally underpaid compared to developers in other industries) - provides protections against undue firings and layoffs I would be curious to know why you don't think a union would be good for these people.
looneysquash 5mo ago
The company you work for almost always has more power in negotiations than you do. (For some hypothetical "you".) The bigger the company is, the more power they have typically. If you want to make more money or get better benefits or otherwise negotiate a better contract, you need more leverage. Unionizing is one way to gain more negotiation power by negotiating together with your co-workers instead of individually. It also makes it easier to address cross cutting concerns like safety and fairness.
- nonethewiser 5mo ago
  You just described why workers should want a union. But that's not what determines whether or not unions will catch on in the industry. Thats determined by the structure of the industry. If its not critical and there are plenty of replacements waiting to take your job, unionization just wont take off on a large scale.
- ryandrake 5mo ago
  A lot of HN repliers think that they, out of thousands of other employees, are that One Captain Of Industry that has sufficient bargaining and negotiating power to stand toe to toe with a huge employer. And therefore, a union could never help tech employees as a class.
  - robrenaud 5mo ago
    My big gripe with unions is the unwavering protection of their worst performing members. Eg, that they necessitated so called "rubber rooms" like these in the NYC public schools, where teachers got paid to do nothing while waiting on arbitration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center
    - threetonesun 5mo ago
      I doubt you'll find many people in favor of how bad cops get protected by police unions either. At least in the US I'd much rather a broad social net so my health care and retirement weren't so directly tied to my job than a union specific to my trade.
  - lovich 5mo ago
    I have gotten a lot of mileage asking from these types once we get to the “I can negotiate my own raises” by asking them how many times they’ve actually tried negotiating much less succeeded.
  - michaelt 5mo ago
    A lot of the salary figures I see thrown around for tech employees in the US are pretty wild [1] - $200k, $400k total compensation without even getting 'Senior' in the job title. That's in a country with a median household income of $84k [2] I think it's understandable why someone would feel they were doing well at bargaining and negotiating if they were taking home 4.7x as much as their neighbours and loved ones. Folks in the games industry by all accounts have really shitty pay and working conditions so I can 110% understand why they'd unionise. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/?tab=levels&compare=Google%2CMeta%2CAmazon https://www.levels.fyi/?tab=levels&compare=Google%2CMeta%2CA... [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
nonethewiser 5mo ago
The ability to unionize has very little to do with the ideology of the workforce and everything to do with the structure of the industry. It wont work out in video games because it's not a critical industry and there are plenty of people willing to do the work.
- rafram 5mo ago
  That logic doesn’t make any sense to me. Game programming, art, and even marketing are highly specific niches within those broader fields. You can’t pick any random programmer off the street and get them up to speed on game development overnight (let alone your specific crazy custom engine/architecture, as often seems to be the case).
  - nonethewiser 5mo ago
    1) Nothing critical is lost if a video game team stops working. Society doesnt need it and there are lots of alternatives. 2) There is already a major labor surplus for video games. It's famously hard to get into and low paying because of it. There is no doubt someone else is willing to step in.
    - lentil_soup 5mo ago
      > Nothing critical is lost if a video game team stops working. Society doesnt need it and there are lots of alternatives. A union represents workers in a company, nothing to do with society. If workers strike the company stops making money, that's their leverage
      - kaoD 5mo ago
        And in knowledge work we're not instantly replaceable. That's why anti-union propaganda is rampant in SWE fields.
    - hootz 5mo ago
      Strikes are to get power over the company, not over society.
akerl_ 5mo ago
How does an experienced teacher or pilot differ from an experienced game designer?
SubjectToChange 5mo ago
>stable and/or well compensated, high status job. Not exploited/abused much. Oh, they definitely deserve a union. >unstable and poorly paid, low status job. Abused and exploited often. Hmm… their job doesn’t really seem “cool enough” to have a union. They should just take it and shut up. I mean, they’re losers after all. I’m sort of joking but it’s interesting how so many people “gatekeep” unions when people in unglamorous lines of work need unions more than almost anyone else.
northern-lights 5mo ago
A union's objective is to protect and safeguard the interest of its members. As long as it does that, it adds value, regardless of what anyone else (especially those not in the union) thinks whether it has value.

hellcow 5mo ago

Presumably employees were unhappy. It's rare that unions spring up when everyone is treated well and paid fairly. I can't speak to this particular group, but Hasbro (parent company of WOTC) has been a horribly short-sighted steward of Magic and DND, so perhaps this will encourage other WOTC divisions to unionize as well.

kaoD 5mo ago

Well, unions do not exist to keep people entrenched on their jobs. That perspective is propaganda (by you-know-who). There's not a lot I can say that isn't covered in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union

matthewkayin 5mo ago

Well generally the workers who make these games actually care about the game and want to make a good experience for the players. The execs however, only care about how much money they can make off of the product. Having a union (assuming that the union is run well), - ensures a better product for customers - ensures better working conditions for workers - ensures better pay and benefits from workers (at least in programming roles, the games industry is generally underpaid compared to developers in other industries) - provides protections against undue firings and layoffs I would be curious to know why you don't think a union would be good for these people.

looneysquash 5mo ago

The company you work for almost always has more power in negotiations than you do. (For some hypothetical "you".) The bigger the company is, the more power they have typically. If you want to make more money or get better benefits or otherwise negotiate a better contract, you need more leverage. Unionizing is one way to gain more negotiation power by negotiating together with your co-workers instead of individually. It also makes it easier to address cross cutting concerns like safety and fairness.

nonethewiser 5mo ago
You just described why workers should want a union. But that's not what determines whether or not unions will catch on in the industry. Thats determined by the structure of the industry. If its not critical and there are plenty of replacements waiting to take your job, unionization just wont take off on a large scale.
ryandrake 5mo ago
A lot of HN repliers think that they, out of thousands of other employees, are that One Captain Of Industry that has sufficient bargaining and negotiating power to stand toe to toe with a huge employer. And therefore, a union could never help tech employees as a class.
- robrenaud 5mo ago
  My big gripe with unions is the unwavering protection of their worst performing members. Eg, that they necessitated so called "rubber rooms" like these in the NYC public schools, where teachers got paid to do nothing while waiting on arbitration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_center
  - threetonesun 5mo ago
    I doubt you'll find many people in favor of how bad cops get protected by police unions either. At least in the US I'd much rather a broad social net so my health care and retirement weren't so directly tied to my job than a union specific to my trade.
- lovich 5mo ago
  I have gotten a lot of mileage asking from these types once we get to the “I can negotiate my own raises” by asking them how many times they’ve actually tried negotiating much less succeeded.
- michaelt 5mo ago
  A lot of the salary figures I see thrown around for tech employees in the US are pretty wild [1] - $200k, $400k total compensation without even getting 'Senior' in the job title. That's in a country with a median household income of $84k [2] I think it's understandable why someone would feel they were doing well at bargaining and negotiating if they were taking home 4.7x as much as their neighbours and loved ones. Folks in the games industry by all accounts have really shitty pay and working conditions so I can 110% understand why they'd unionise. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/?tab=levels&compare=Google%2CMeta%2CAmazon https://www.levels.fyi/?tab=levels&compare=Google%2CMeta%2CA... [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

nonethewiser 5mo ago

The ability to unionize has very little to do with the ideology of the workforce and everything to do with the structure of the industry. It wont work out in video games because it's not a critical industry and there are plenty of people willing to do the work.

rafram 5mo ago
That logic doesn’t make any sense to me. Game programming, art, and even marketing are highly specific niches within those broader fields. You can’t pick any random programmer off the street and get them up to speed on game development overnight (let alone your specific crazy custom engine/architecture, as often seems to be the case).
- nonethewiser 5mo ago
  1) Nothing critical is lost if a video game team stops working. Society doesnt need it and there are lots of alternatives. 2) There is already a major labor surplus for video games. It's famously hard to get into and low paying because of it. There is no doubt someone else is willing to step in.
  - lentil_soup 5mo ago
    > Nothing critical is lost if a video game team stops working. Society doesnt need it and there are lots of alternatives. A union represents workers in a company, nothing to do with society. If workers strike the company stops making money, that's their leverage
    - kaoD 5mo ago
      And in knowledge work we're not instantly replaceable. That's why anti-union propaganda is rampant in SWE fields.
  - hootz 5mo ago
    Strikes are to get power over the company, not over society.

akerl_ 5mo ago

How does an experienced teacher or pilot differ from an experienced game designer?

SubjectToChange 5mo ago

>stable and/or well compensated, high status job. Not exploited/abused much. Oh, they definitely deserve a union. >unstable and poorly paid, low status job. Abused and exploited often. Hmm… their job doesn’t really seem “cool enough” to have a union. They should just take it and shut up. I mean, they’re losers after all. I’m sort of joking but it’s interesting how so many people “gatekeep” unions when people in unglamorous lines of work need unions more than almost anyone else.

northern-lights 5mo ago

A union's objective is to protect and safeguard the interest of its members. As long as it does that, it adds value, regardless of what anyone else (especially those not in the union) thinks whether it has value.