3 ms·

I feel like foregoing the whole PCB would be better, and just wirewrap, or "free-air" solder.

by fallat 5mo ago

amelius 5mo ago
How would you handle LQFP or BGA packages?
- Brian_K_White 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - kennywinker 5mo ago
    How well did Albert Hanson’s flat foil board handle BGAs? Instead of looking for flaws, try looking for the insight. I’m reminded of this blog post that was on hn recently https://scottlawsonbc.com/post/shooting-down-ideas https://scottlawsonbc.com/post/shooting-down-ideas
    - Brian_K_White 5mo ago
      [flagged]
      - kennywinker 5mo ago
        I didn't invoke bgas, that was someone else. I can easily explain how this art process could handle BGAs. As mentioned in the article, you could swap the indentation+hand-painted circuit traces with screen-printed traces on a flat surface. Defending one idea isn’t shooting down another. Point to point wiring has its uses, for sure. But calling it an “idiotic ash tray of clay and paint” is shooting something down. But again, i think you’re conflating me with an earlier commenter.
      - dang 5mo ago
        Can you please stop posting so aggressively and breaking the site guidelines? You've done it repeatedly in this thread and we're trying for something else here. If you don't find the current post/comments gratifying of your intellectual curiosity, there are 29 other threads on the frontpage, and if none of those are of interest, you're certain to find something interesting at https://news.ycombinator.com/front https://news.ycombinator.com/front and the links back from there. In the meantime, if you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
    - amelius 5mo ago
      Not looking for flaws. Looking for solutions!
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - foltik 5mo ago
    What a rude and shallow thing to say about a creative project.
    - lostlogin 5mo ago
      It’s interesting how angry this makes some people.
      - Brian_K_White 5mo ago
        I don't know about anyone else you might possibly be referring to, but I can say in my case I said it's worthless and stupid, I did not say I hate it or that it makes me angry. "It's interesting" how some people can only interpret that as anger, or are willing to put their own words into someone else's mouth and then hold against them something they never said, while in the very act of critiquing them for lack of civilized behavior. I mean dude... chef's kiss. A thing can simply be recognized and dumb and nothing more to it than that. The only reason it's even worth saying is not actually just because a dumb thing exists, but because the dumb thing does not do what it purports to do that's all. This is not in fact an alternative to PCBs, nor even a path to eventually being one. We have had electronics on all manner of substrates including ceramics since forever, so I'm not merely saying that you can't put traces on ceramics. I'm saying this project as presented makes no sense. It's just a silly idea that doesn't actually provide enough function or value to be worth the materials. It doesn't hurt anyone, and so there is nothing there to hate, merely dismiss. "It's interesting" how angry pointing this out makes some people. Let me guess the next question if I may be so bold: "Why go out of your way to say anything instead of just ignoring?" Glad you asked ;) Why didn't the authors of this web page simply do their project without saying anything? They actively published their idea. I didn't go put a spy camera in their back yard and and then tell the world "hey look how dumb this is." They, of their own volition, went out of their way to actively tell the world "Hey look at what I did." I didn't even post it to HN here. It just turned up and was presented to me. Well I did look as they asked. And then I said what my asessment of what they showed. I didn't have to reply, but the authors diodn't have to publish either. And still even this reaction to your comment (which is it's own seperate thing from the reaction to the original post) isn't anger. It is critique, bordering on ridicule by pointing out just how many different ways the remark doesn't hold water, but I didn't make the argument or the holes in it. As with the original post, it does not require anger to observe that something is dumb, nor even to say that you observe that it's dumb.
- svens_ 5mo ago
  What do you think the minimum pad clearance is for the clay? You can dead bug an LQFP if you absolutely have to…
- namuol 5mo ago
  https://youtu.be/edERx4x5eY0 https://youtu.be/edERx4x5eY0 https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_wlcsp https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_wlcsp
ssl-3 5mo ago
Perhaps. This has an advantage that the board itself is printed. After molding and firing (say) 50 of them, those that survive will all look and work about the same. Painting the conductive traces into the printed pathways is an easy thing to get right. And then the parts are soldered on, which is also easy to get right. The design and the pathways are predefined, and then mechanically copied (printed) over and over. This reduces the skill required for final assembly. Wire-wrap and point-to-point methods certainly also work, but they come with increased potential for errors at assembly so getting them right tends to require more skill. Reducing assembly skill is part of how PCBs became commonplace to begin with. And those other methods still generally want a board of some kind to mount stuff to, anyway, just for practical handling and durability reasons. It might be a perfboard. It might also be a chunk of scrap wood from the shed (we can even add nails and Fahnestock clips to it for fixturing and connectivity!). Whatever it is, it probably still resembles a board. But with this clay method, the provision of that board is inherent in the process. That has a distinct bit of elegance to it. (And if we cast all logic and reason aside, then remember: This is supposed to be art. It's OK that different methods of circuit assembly exist, and it's even OK if some or all of them are better in some way.)

I feel like foregoing the whole PCB would be better, and just wirewrap, or "free-air" solder.

by fallat 5mo ago

I feel like foregoing the whole PCB would be better, and just wirewrap, or "free-air" solder.

amelius 5mo ago

How would you handle LQFP or BGA packages?

Brian_K_White 5mo ago
[flagged]
- kennywinker 5mo ago
  How well did Albert Hanson’s flat foil board handle BGAs? Instead of looking for flaws, try looking for the insight. I’m reminded of this blog post that was on hn recently https://scottlawsonbc.com/post/shooting-down-ideas https://scottlawsonbc.com/post/shooting-down-ideas
  - Brian_K_White 5mo ago
    [flagged]
    - kennywinker 5mo ago
      I didn't invoke bgas, that was someone else. I can easily explain how this art process could handle BGAs. As mentioned in the article, you could swap the indentation+hand-painted circuit traces with screen-printed traces on a flat surface. Defending one idea isn’t shooting down another. Point to point wiring has its uses, for sure. But calling it an “idiotic ash tray of clay and paint” is shooting something down. But again, i think you’re conflating me with an earlier commenter.
    - dang 5mo ago
      Can you please stop posting so aggressively and breaking the site guidelines? You've done it repeatedly in this thread and we're trying for something else here. If you don't find the current post/comments gratifying of your intellectual curiosity, there are 29 other threads on the frontpage, and if none of those are of interest, you're certain to find something interesting at https://news.ycombinator.com/front https://news.ycombinator.com/front and the links back from there. In the meantime, if you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - amelius 5mo ago
    Not looking for flaws. Looking for solutions!
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- foltik 5mo ago
  What a rude and shallow thing to say about a creative project.
  - lostlogin 5mo ago
    It’s interesting how angry this makes some people.
    - Brian_K_White 5mo ago
      I don't know about anyone else you might possibly be referring to, but I can say in my case I said it's worthless and stupid, I did not say I hate it or that it makes me angry. "It's interesting" how some people can only interpret that as anger, or are willing to put their own words into someone else's mouth and then hold against them something they never said, while in the very act of critiquing them for lack of civilized behavior. I mean dude... chef's kiss. A thing can simply be recognized and dumb and nothing more to it than that. The only reason it's even worth saying is not actually just because a dumb thing exists, but because the dumb thing does not do what it purports to do that's all. This is not in fact an alternative to PCBs, nor even a path to eventually being one. We have had electronics on all manner of substrates including ceramics since forever, so I'm not merely saying that you can't put traces on ceramics. I'm saying this project as presented makes no sense. It's just a silly idea that doesn't actually provide enough function or value to be worth the materials. It doesn't hurt anyone, and so there is nothing there to hate, merely dismiss. "It's interesting" how angry pointing this out makes some people. Let me guess the next question if I may be so bold: "Why go out of your way to say anything instead of just ignoring?" Glad you asked ;) Why didn't the authors of this web page simply do their project without saying anything? They actively published their idea. I didn't go put a spy camera in their back yard and and then tell the world "hey look how dumb this is." They, of their own volition, went out of their way to actively tell the world "Hey look at what I did." I didn't even post it to HN here. It just turned up and was presented to me. Well I did look as they asked. And then I said what my asessment of what they showed. I didn't have to reply, but the authors diodn't have to publish either. And still even this reaction to your comment (which is it's own seperate thing from the reaction to the original post) isn't anger. It is critique, bordering on ridicule by pointing out just how many different ways the remark doesn't hold water, but I didn't make the argument or the holes in it. As with the original post, it does not require anger to observe that something is dumb, nor even to say that you observe that it's dumb.
svens_ 5mo ago
What do you think the minimum pad clearance is for the clay? You can dead bug an LQFP if you absolutely have to…
namuol 5mo ago
https://youtu.be/edERx4x5eY0 https://youtu.be/edERx4x5eY0 https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_wlcsp https://mitxela.com/projects/soldering_wlcsp

ssl-3 5mo ago

Perhaps. This has an advantage that the board itself is printed. After molding and firing (say) 50 of them, those that survive will all look and work about the same. Painting the conductive traces into the printed pathways is an easy thing to get right. And then the parts are soldered on, which is also easy to get right. The design and the pathways are predefined, and then mechanically copied (printed) over and over. This reduces the skill required for final assembly. Wire-wrap and point-to-point methods certainly also work, but they come with increased potential for errors at assembly so getting them right tends to require more skill. Reducing assembly skill is part of how PCBs became commonplace to begin with. And those other methods still generally want a board of some kind to mount stuff to, anyway, just for practical handling and durability reasons. It might be a perfboard. It might also be a chunk of scrap wood from the shed (we can even add nails and Fahnestock clips to it for fixturing and connectivity!). Whatever it is, it probably still resembles a board. But with this clay method, the provision of that board is inherent in the process. That has a distinct bit of elegance to it. (And if we cast all logic and reason aside, then remember: This is supposed to be art. It's OK that different methods of circuit assembly exist, and it's even OK if some or all of them are better in some way.)