4 ms·

Because they got a lot of trolls and Apple fans. The decision was not made lightly.

by confiq 5mo ago

AussieWog93 5mo ago
Honestly, knowing what I know about marcan, the decision was probably the result of an overwhelming/strong emotional reaction. Not to just shit all over him or anything, but it really sucks to see someone who is genuinely top-ten-on-earth when it comes to "real hacking" struggle so much with socialisation and mental health.
- applfanboysbgon 5mo ago
  It is weird to blame the victim for reacting to being harassed by a mob. That is a normal thing to have a reaction to. Perhaps rather than blaming people's social skills and mental health, we should instead blame the culture that normalises harassing people on the internet, even to the point of suicide (as happened in byuu's case). You are basically advocating that it is better for individuals to change to accept a shitty society as a given rather than advocating for society to change to be less shitty.
  - AussieWog93 5mo ago
    I'm genuinely unfamiliar of the harassment campaign that HN launched against him. (I am familiar with some comments debating the validity of Byuu/Near's gender identity, and marcan's extremely strong reaction to that, but no actual harassment campaigns)
  - geodel 5mo ago
    This marcan person had problem with Go, he had problem with Apple fans, he had problems with linux committers, so much he left internet or something. To say everyone but marcan was wrong is just a kind of fanboyism and it hardly helps marcan. This person liked to dish out as much as next person but display extreme reaction when served.
    - throwaway27448 5mo ago
      Being harassed by neckbeards would drive anyone insane
      - panick21_ 5mo ago
        No it actually wouldn't. As in 15+ years of Hacker News I have not seen the same so clearly it can be so horrible that it regularly leads to such strong reaction, suggesting that for most people this isn't nearly so impactful. And very few things described could actually be called harassment, mostly it was light criticism or maybe a bit trolling.
        bagxrvxpepzn 5mo ago
        The guy appears to have a fragile ego. Any criticism and he goes nuclear, as if he was never told "no" as a child. Sure you can have opinions about the best way to moderate comments, but I can't imagine thinking I was special enough to publicly demand how Hacker News should be run. I've worked with people like this, not fun!
        throwaway27448 5mo ago
        I don't think having a strong ego on this forrm is any more laudable. I think I come back for the people trying to build stuff for no reward
        throwaway27448 5mo ago
        Hacker news also attracts those already driven insane. Virtually none of us can socialize normally or have healthy human values
        panick21_ 5mo ago
        Again, wildly incorrect and just the old 'nerd' stereotype.
  - rowanG077 5mo ago
    This is not a dichotomy. It's not healthy to take random online comments to heart so much. It's also bad to make such ridiculous comments. Both can be true at the same time.
    - applfanboysbgon 5mo ago
      This diminishes what "random online comments" are. They aren't just text on a screen. They represent words that another human being has said about you. Often, words that will convince other human beings, who may take different actions or view you differently because of what they've been told, which will in turn spread virally and alter how thousands and thousands of humans see you and act towards you. Humans are a social species. It is easy to say "just don't be social bro". When you are actually the victim of this behaviour, it is much less easy to shrug off. Having a bunch of people hate you and say horrible things about you hurts. That's not abnormal. That is perfectly normal. Is it good for your health? No, in the same way that somebody smoking next to me is not good for my health, but it's not my fault the person next to me is smoking. The blame rests with them. To some extent, yes, stepping away from the smoker is a short-term fix, although often an unpleasant one that impacts your quality of life in other ways (what if the restaraunt you like is full of smokers, what if the airport is full of smokers, etc). In the same way society eventually changed to discourage smoking around other people, we really, really need to change the culture around the internet, to recognise that the internet is actually a social environment, that there are real people on both sides of the screen. "Go touch grass" implies that the internet is not the real world, but it very much is, with real consequences, even if you can't see the other person.
      - rowanG077 5mo ago
        I agree it would be much better if online culture improved, and I don’t think anyone would argue against that. The difficulty is that change at that scale tends to be slow and unpredictable, on the order of decades, so you can't rely on it in the short term. Because of that I think there’s value in focusing on what individuals can control, like setting boundaries, disengaging when things get overwhelming, or stepping away from spaces that become unhealthy. That doesn’t mean the behavior is acceptable, or that people should just tolerate it. It’s more about acknowledging that, while broader change is important, taking steps to protect yourself is the only immediate and reliable option.
  - throwawaypath 5mo ago
    [flagged]
    - AKSF_Ackermann 5mo ago
      I am not sure how what happened can be considered "being outed", the vtuber's puppeteer was obvious from day one to anyone who was paying any attention at all, it is just that a lot of people decided to uphold the kayfabe. (And I don't blame them, at least before the lkml crashout it was a pretty fun character.)
      - leadingthenet 5mo ago
        I do not understand why people would rather play into the delusions of a clearly mentally unwell individual for months and year on end — when they well know it's bullshit — under the guise of this somehow being in the interests of said individual and/or being fun. This, to me, is the height of selfishness clocked in disingenuous empathy. The widespread normalisation of this behaviour, and the subsequent ~~thought~~ now real policing around the issue, is a clear mark of a deep societal ill.
        Capricorn2481 5mo ago
        > is a clear mark of a deep societal ill. And calling all of society ill because of a vtuber is not overly emotional? How enlightened
      - cindyllm 5mo ago
        [dead]
      - gfaster 5mo ago
        While there is overlap between vtuber communities and HN, the culture is quite different. When one does come up, it is eternally September on HN. In vtuber communities/culture, the persona of the vtuber is treated as entirely separate from the person behind it, even in cases where it's exceedingly obvious (e.g. someone leaves an agency to work independently). At the very least, it is rude to disseminate, draw attention to, or even speculate aloud about the identity of the person behind the avatar. Typically it's considered harassment/doxxing (I believe this is because vtubing culture is largely derived from Japanese idol culture, which appears to be structured around dealing with stalkers). That is to say, "upholding the kayfabe" is a bare-minimum of respect. I could see why people on the Asahi team considered HN to be a host of harassment, considering even a cursory search of HN turns up comments "compiling evidence" about Asahi Lina's identity (including one still-up comment that straight-up links to Kiwi Farms, which is almost certainly done for purpose of harassment). I'm not sure if Hacker News ought to be moderating comments that deconstructs pseudonyms where clear effort has been made to separate it from the person behind them, but I also empathize with not wanting to be linked to accordingly.
  - throwawaypath 5mo ago
    Marcan was clearly mentally unwell. He delusionally thought there was some harassment mob after him. After the fallout with Linux kernel devs, the lolipedo accusations, and him being outed as the vtuber Asahi Lina, he arguably did the correct thing: deleted every social media account and abandoned Asahi Linux. I hope he stepped away from screens and spent some time outdoors.
- midtake 5mo ago
  [flagged]

Because they got a lot of trolls and Apple fans. The decision was not made lightly.

by confiq 5mo ago

Because they got a lot of trolls and Apple fans. The decision was not made lightly.

Honestly, knowing what I know about marcan, the decision was probably the result of an overwhelming/strong emotional reaction. Not to just shit all over him or anything, but it really sucks to see someone who is genuinely top-ten-on-earth when it comes to "real hacking" struggle so much with socialisation and mental health.

applfanboysbgon 5mo ago
It is weird to blame the victim for reacting to being harassed by a mob. That is a normal thing to have a reaction to. Perhaps rather than blaming people's social skills and mental health, we should instead blame the culture that normalises harassing people on the internet, even to the point of suicide (as happened in byuu's case). You are basically advocating that it is better for individuals to change to accept a shitty society as a given rather than advocating for society to change to be less shitty.
- AussieWog93 5mo ago
  I'm genuinely unfamiliar of the harassment campaign that HN launched against him. (I am familiar with some comments debating the validity of Byuu/Near's gender identity, and marcan's extremely strong reaction to that, but no actual harassment campaigns)
- geodel 5mo ago
  This marcan person had problem with Go, he had problem with Apple fans, he had problems with linux committers, so much he left internet or something. To say everyone but marcan was wrong is just a kind of fanboyism and it hardly helps marcan. This person liked to dish out as much as next person but display extreme reaction when served.
  - throwaway27448 5mo ago
    Being harassed by neckbeards would drive anyone insane
    - panick21_ 5mo ago
      No it actually wouldn't. As in 15+ years of Hacker News I have not seen the same so clearly it can be so horrible that it regularly leads to such strong reaction, suggesting that for most people this isn't nearly so impactful. And very few things described could actually be called harassment, mostly it was light criticism or maybe a bit trolling.
      - bagxrvxpepzn 5mo ago
        The guy appears to have a fragile ego. Any criticism and he goes nuclear, as if he was never told "no" as a child. Sure you can have opinions about the best way to moderate comments, but I can't imagine thinking I was special enough to publicly demand how Hacker News should be run. I've worked with people like this, not fun!
        throwaway27448 5mo ago
        I don't think having a strong ego on this forrm is any more laudable. I think I come back for the people trying to build stuff for no reward
      - throwaway27448 5mo ago
        Hacker news also attracts those already driven insane. Virtually none of us can socialize normally or have healthy human values
        panick21_ 5mo ago
        Again, wildly incorrect and just the old 'nerd' stereotype.
- rowanG077 5mo ago
  This is not a dichotomy. It's not healthy to take random online comments to heart so much. It's also bad to make such ridiculous comments. Both can be true at the same time.
  - applfanboysbgon 5mo ago
    This diminishes what "random online comments" are. They aren't just text on a screen. They represent words that another human being has said about you. Often, words that will convince other human beings, who may take different actions or view you differently because of what they've been told, which will in turn spread virally and alter how thousands and thousands of humans see you and act towards you. Humans are a social species. It is easy to say "just don't be social bro". When you are actually the victim of this behaviour, it is much less easy to shrug off. Having a bunch of people hate you and say horrible things about you hurts. That's not abnormal. That is perfectly normal. Is it good for your health? No, in the same way that somebody smoking next to me is not good for my health, but it's not my fault the person next to me is smoking. The blame rests with them. To some extent, yes, stepping away from the smoker is a short-term fix, although often an unpleasant one that impacts your quality of life in other ways (what if the restaraunt you like is full of smokers, what if the airport is full of smokers, etc). In the same way society eventually changed to discourage smoking around other people, we really, really need to change the culture around the internet, to recognise that the internet is actually a social environment, that there are real people on both sides of the screen. "Go touch grass" implies that the internet is not the real world, but it very much is, with real consequences, even if you can't see the other person.
    - rowanG077 5mo ago
      I agree it would be much better if online culture improved, and I don’t think anyone would argue against that. The difficulty is that change at that scale tends to be slow and unpredictable, on the order of decades, so you can't rely on it in the short term. Because of that I think there’s value in focusing on what individuals can control, like setting boundaries, disengaging when things get overwhelming, or stepping away from spaces that become unhealthy. That doesn’t mean the behavior is acceptable, or that people should just tolerate it. It’s more about acknowledging that, while broader change is important, taking steps to protect yourself is the only immediate and reliable option.
- throwawaypath 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  - AKSF_Ackermann 5mo ago
    I am not sure how what happened can be considered "being outed", the vtuber's puppeteer was obvious from day one to anyone who was paying any attention at all, it is just that a lot of people decided to uphold the kayfabe. (And I don't blame them, at least before the lkml crashout it was a pretty fun character.)
    - leadingthenet 5mo ago
      I do not understand why people would rather play into the delusions of a clearly mentally unwell individual for months and year on end — when they well know it's bullshit — under the guise of this somehow being in the interests of said individual and/or being fun. This, to me, is the height of selfishness clocked in disingenuous empathy. The widespread normalisation of this behaviour, and the subsequent ~~thought~~ now real policing around the issue, is a clear mark of a deep societal ill.
      - Capricorn2481 5mo ago
        > is a clear mark of a deep societal ill. And calling all of society ill because of a vtuber is not overly emotional? How enlightened
    - cindyllm 5mo ago
      [dead]
    - gfaster 5mo ago
      While there is overlap between vtuber communities and HN, the culture is quite different. When one does come up, it is eternally September on HN. In vtuber communities/culture, the persona of the vtuber is treated as entirely separate from the person behind it, even in cases where it's exceedingly obvious (e.g. someone leaves an agency to work independently). At the very least, it is rude to disseminate, draw attention to, or even speculate aloud about the identity of the person behind the avatar. Typically it's considered harassment/doxxing (I believe this is because vtubing culture is largely derived from Japanese idol culture, which appears to be structured around dealing with stalkers). That is to say, "upholding the kayfabe" is a bare-minimum of respect. I could see why people on the Asahi team considered HN to be a host of harassment, considering even a cursory search of HN turns up comments "compiling evidence" about Asahi Lina's identity (including one still-up comment that straight-up links to Kiwi Farms, which is almost certainly done for purpose of harassment). I'm not sure if Hacker News ought to be moderating comments that deconstructs pseudonyms where clear effort has been made to separate it from the person behind them, but I also empathize with not wanting to be linked to accordingly.
- throwawaypath 5mo ago
  Marcan was clearly mentally unwell. He delusionally thought there was some harassment mob after him. After the fallout with Linux kernel devs, the lolipedo accusations, and him being outed as the vtuber Asahi Lina, he arguably did the correct thing: deleted every social media account and abandoned Asahi Linux. I hope he stepped away from screens and spent some time outdoors.
midtake 5mo ago
[flagged]