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I love GrapheneOS and I use it daily for more than 2 years. However, and as Louis Rossmann pointed out in one of his videos, they really need to work on the "de
by Cortex5936 6mo ago
I love GrapheneOS and I use it daily for more than 2 years. However, and as Louis Rossmann pointed out in one of his videos, they really need to work on the "defensiveness" and "rants" of their communication. Even when they are 99% right most of the time, they sometimes don't come as mature and professional.
- Georgelemental 6mo agoPersonally, I like that they come across as a little paranoid. That's exactly the attitude I want in the people protecting my privacy and security. I hope the developers lie awake at night, unable to fall asleep because terrified that someone somewhere is plotting to attack and exploit them
- busterarm 6mo agoThere's healthy paranoia and there's treating even casual commentary/criticism from anyone as an existential threat & coordinated attack...and responding to that with sustained, coordinated attack campaigns online. That's what Micay's history is. That's not healthy for any project.
- Cider9986 6mo agoRecently, the socials have been more moderate and level-headed, imo.
- TehCorwiz 6mo agoBased on how discourse in the US has been perverted by inches and millions of mosquito bites they may not be wrong. Stamping out bad information fast and hard seems to be the only way to combat mass coordinated disinformation. Being polite just lets people play the "both sides have merit" game.
- user_7832 6mo agoCould you share a link or something about this? > ...responding to that with sustained, coordinated attack campaigns online. That's what Micay's history is. For the rest, in general, I'm tempted to give grapheneOS the benefit of the doubt. Running any FOSS project is hard, running it against the (implicit) wishes of OEMs/Google (who throw in things like Play Integrity) is even harder, and doing it when 3 letter agencies at the US govt actively hate you is harder still. Being paranoid in responses to FUD campaigns isn't ideal, but save coordinated attacks, I'd say fairly understandable.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- microtonal 6mo agoWell, they have had to deal with multiple swattings, constant misinformation from some competitors (e.g. Murena's CEO doing interviews with various media where they insinuate that security-hardened systems like GrapheneOS are only for criminals and secret agents, complete with 'think of the children'-style arguments), and some local/national governments boosting the narrative that GrapheneOS is for criminals. So I can understand why they are as defensive as they are.
- HybridStatAnim8 6mo agoThis is false. Commentary and criticism is not treated as a coordinated attack. Coordinated attacks are treated as coordinated attacks. Criticism is often used as an excuse to try and hide attacks, and many people unfortunately cannot tell the difference.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- singing_tartly 6mo agonot true at all... There's no coordinated attacks on anyone or projects by GrapheneOS. They respond to misinformation, that's about it. There have been many attacks on privacy/security projects, not just GOS, recently. If you keep up with the GOS forum you can see posts saying GOS was hacked without evidence. Other claims that GOS is only used by criminals. Theyre not true. Misinformation that aims to destroy the reputation of the project should be responded to.
- uqers 6mo agohttps://xkcd.com/225/ https://xkcd.com/225/
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- finalst 6mo agoWhile I understand you are trying to be positive about this, I don't think it's good to want our team portrayed like this, sorry. Paranoid people are people who'd easily be influenced into doing harmful behaviors because it believes it will stop their problems. Making a response to inaccuracies and bad journalism platforming an extremely malicious actor isn't a symptom of that. We don't have people with severe mental illness on the team. That would be irresponsible and mental illness is not something to romanticise in my opinion.
- Georgelemental 5mo agoThere is a very broad spectrum between "completely average and neurotypical" and "severe mental illness". E.g. "slightly atypical personality". The world would be a boring place if everyone was exactly the same
- finalst 5mo agoI agree for sure everyone should be different and have a diversity of how peoples brains work. The same type of think puts us into a bubble. We are definitely atypical because we are developing something quite atypical as well. Coming as a project member I just sometimes see comments that call us stuff like 'schizos' or 'paranoid' even when it is intending to be positive. I guess somehow they believe someone with a severe mental issue is more likely to an adversary of the government or whatever enemy they perceive? I don't know the justification behind it. I just find that odd, we're quite ordinary people actually. I don't think it does good for mental health awareness and for people who actually have these issues to backseat diagnose how people's minds supposedly work.
- uberman 6mo ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago[flagged]
- balamatom 6mo ago[flagged]
- neonstatic 6mo agoIt's a personality type / disorder (pick your poison). There's no hope for change. Programming seems to attract such people, because they are fixated on being right and proving that they are right. I know a few more examples. My common sense policy is - if the software these types produce works for me, I will be using it, but I will never allow myself to be dependent on it. That kind of person will gladly burn their own house to the ground, with everyone in it, if that's what's required to prove their truths or maintain some kind of intellectual purity.
- 1attice 6mo ago[flagged]
- throw4847285 6mo agoOne common personality disorder I see is being extremely defensive when encountering any discussion of human psychology. This comes from a deep psychological fragility. Classic OAD (Obvious Asshole Disorder)
- neonstatic 6mo agoOk, but what I'd be wrong about here? I'm not even claiming that the person in the article is that way. I don't know enough about them. I have noticed a certain trend, however, and that's what I was noting.
- cindyllm 6mo ago
- balamatom 6mo ago[flagged]
- stevemk14ebr 6mo ago[flagged]
- balamatom 6mo ago[flagged]
- toaste_ 6mo agoWhen Louis Rossmann thinks your communication has a problem with going on rants, it must be pretty out there.
- Cider9986 6mo ago[flagged]
- OsrsNeedsf2P 6mo ago[flagged]
- kiwiscum 6mo ago[flagged]
- akimbostrawman 6mo ago[flagged]
- HybridStatAnim8 6mo agoRossmann made a thread on Kiwi Farms because Kiwi Farms members support him, and they support harassing his targets. Rossmann has an account on Kiwi Farms for the purpose of engaging with his supporters on the site. He acts friendly with them and they choose to actively support him. Rossmanns thread on the site is in support of him, not a harassment thread against him.
- akimbostrawman 5mo ago>Rossmann has an account on Kiwi Farms for the purpose of engaging with his supporters on the site. He acts friendly with them and they choose to actively support him Once again. Okay and? Kiwifarms is a legal site in the us. He is engaging in no harassment or doxxing of anyone just talking to people that talk about him. Does micay talking on twitter with other people mean he supports musk or anything else anybody does on the platform? If all your points are just "guilt by association" then just say that.
- elpocko 6mo ago[flagged]
- simianparrot 6mo ago[flagged]
- idle_zealot 6mo agoParent is obviously being sarcastic.
- simianparrot 6mo agoPoe's law gets me again. It's getting really rough these days on HN, I have to admit... My bad. Seems the AI-Protectorate Flagging Brigade managed to parse the sarcasm though.
- balamatom 6mo ago[flagged]
- mvkel 6mo agoBeing "right" shouldn't excuse bad behavior, especially if you depend entirely on a community to survive, which we all do.
- HybridStatAnim8 6mo agoDefending oneself isnt an unreasonable thing to do. GrapheneOS is entirely funded by donations and receives a lot of donations to this day. Them defending themselves is not an existential risk, the attacks against them are.
- balamatom 6mo agoWhy the scare quotes? Being right is the literal opposite of bad behavior.
- mvkel 5mo agoIf you have zero consideration for other people, sure. "I can't believe you wrote this terrible code. You clearly don’t understand how concurrency works. Do it again." Technically right, but when you run out of people who actually want to work with you, you'll be writing the code yourself.
- balamatom 5mo agoWhat's worse: good work that I get to do myself, or bad work that I'm forced to accept anyway?
- aphorism 5mo agoWhich "bad behavior" are you talking about?
- OsrsNeedsf2P 6mo ago[flagged]
- Pr0ject217 6mo ago[flagged]
- Matl 6mo ago> However, and as Louis Rossmann pointed out in one of his videos, they really need to work on the "defensiveness" and "rants" of their communication Not that I disagree but Louis Rossmann giving someone advice to tone down the rants is ironic.
- busterarm 6mo ago[flagged]
- HybridStatAnim8 6mo agoGrapheneOSs posts are made to combat misinformation. Drawing public attention from those who may be misled and put at risk is how one combats misinfo. Its not ranting and its not somehow unreasonable to defend oneself.
- busterarm 6mo agoYour entire comment history on HN exists across two separate posts about GrapheneOS. You're not a community member, you're an astroturfer.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- HybridStatAnim8 6mo agoI have been a GrapheneOS user for several years, and I choose to dedicate my time supporting the project. Supporting an open source project is not 'astroturfing'. I am an active chatroom member, and many people see me there on a regular basis. I choose to volunteer my time, and am not paid or compensated in any form.
- microtonal 5mo agoEhm, Astroturfing is the deceptive practice of hiding the sponsors of an orchestrated message or organization to make it appear as though it originates from, and is supported by, unsolicited grassroots participants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing They are pretty much the opposite of an astroturfer, they mentioned several times in the comments that they are an active supporter/community member of GrapheneOS. So, they are not hiding and they are grassroots participants. Please avoid personal attacks on HN, even more so when they are incorrect.
- neilv 6mo agoMy gut feel is that Micay is genuine, and obviously also very defensive. At least some of the defensiveness is warranted. Maybe most of it. Regardless, it comes across in most GrapheneOS communications, and it's sometimes counterproductive. A related issue, which I'm sure Micay can appreciate, is that users of GrapheneOS tend to be cautious, and increasingly will want to know why the project should be trusted, now that it is popular and on a lot of radars of adversaries. (For example, hypothetical scenario that's plausible, given the incentives: State actor (e.g., RU, US, CN) or organized crime group long-con starts with a public harassment campaign of Micay. Followed by sleeper volunteers taking more control of the project, initially under the pretext of helping insulate Micay from harassment, and taking some of the load off. Later maybe even impersonating Micay. Now the threat actor has backdoors to a large number of especially privacy/security-conscious parties, including communications, 2FA, location, cryptocurrency wallets, internal networks where those people work, etc.) I think it probably hasn't been compromised like that, but it's an obvious real possibility, and IMHO, until GrapheneOS is more transparent, some natural users of GrapheneOS are going to consider iPhone relatively "the devil you know". Again, I think Micay is genuine, and I'm a fan of the project and appreciate it. And I hope the project understands that's compatible with critical thinking about infosec, and doesn't take personal offense at that. (Source: Am long-time GrapheneOS user, and have donated.)
- microtonal 6mo agoI agree that this is an issue, but it is impossible to prove a negative. The same could be said for Apple's or other manufacturer's signing keys. Who guarantees that the US government hasn't required access to the iOS signing keys? Or China in exchange for access to the Chinese market? They probably wouldn't even want to reveal that the signing keys were leaked if they were allowed to, since it would undermine their security story. With a non-profit project of highly principled security experts, there is at least a high probability that they'd rather blow up the project than compromise. People elsewhere in the thread criticize Micay because he deleted the CopperheadOS keys, but to me it increases trust in the GrapheneOS project, since he clearly puts the security of his users over money, fear, and whatnot. In the end trust arises from running a project or company long-term without evidence that you somehow compromised security. I wonder in general how this situation could be improved. Second or third independent reproducible build + confirmation signing?
- wyldfire 6mo agoIt would be interesting if there were a state sponsored effort to discredit a project that helps some people keep their communications private.
- Cider9986 6mo agoThere might be one, in France.
- dooglius 6mo agoHave you considered that the smooth-talking "mature" and "professional" people are more likely to sell your data to advertisers at the first opportunity?
- HybridStatAnim8 6mo agoLouis Rossmann caused a lot of harm to GOS and blasted them publicly for trying to raise issues privately. That is disgusting behaviour. He then lied to his own viewers about no longer using GrapheneOS, lied about fears of a targeted update despite that not being possible, among a lot of other things. Note he also has an identity verified kiwifarms account. GOS only defends themselves from attacks. Its not that they are misinterpreting what is an attack, there are really just that many attacks. It leaves little room for much else than defense. Nobody should have to deal with the inhumane level of attacks.
- jasonvorhe 5mo agoI don't care about messaging or professionalism in marketing. I'm perfectly happy with the way GrapheneOS is being managed right now, including their lengthy technical rebuttals to any attempts of attacking the project to dilute its quality or reach.
- aphorism 5mo agoSo what if they're defensive and cringe in their rants? Are you so indoctrinated into believing performative aloofness is "professional" that you can't see clearly?