5 ms·

>The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools This is doing a lot of work here. There's enough wiggle room for t

>The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools This is doing a lot of work here. There's enough wiggle room for this to be absolutely meaningless. Anything short of I can slide off the back cover and maybe unscrew two or three screws to replace the battery means that a lot of people are going to end up not being able to replace the batteries.

napolux 6mo ago
better than glued.
- mminer237 6mo ago
  Heat guns and pryers are commercially available. I don't think this will change anything there.
  - napolux 6mo ago
    Also Stanley's Fubar and CAT 797 trucks are commercially available, doesn't mean I will need one of those to change my phone battery :)
  - kotaKat 6mo ago
    And Pentalobe screwdrivers are also commercially available now, so Apple doesn't even have to include one...
  - fainpul 6mo ago
    You're wrong about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530
    - mminer237 6mo ago
      Thanks. I couldn't find the text for the life of me. Glad to be wrong.
jahnu 6mo ago
Maybe. Maybe not. If my local phone and phone accessories shop can do it for little money in 15 minutes then the current calculus changes for a heck of a lot of people.
- ranger_danger 6mo ago
  Isn't that already the case though?
  - jahnu 6mo ago
    Last time I checked I’d have to leave my phone for a couple of days and the glue factor meant they wouldn’t guarantee it would come back perfectly. My assumption is this might make it a more trivial change.
    - zarzavat 6mo ago
      I don't see what change they can make, at least to an iPhone. The glue is necessary for water resistance.
      - phoronixrly 6mo ago
        Necessary? Gaskets and o-rings haven't been invented yet?
        philipallstar 6mo ago
        They have, and people preferred smaller phones.
        krs_ 6mo ago
        And then they got larger again.
        philipallstar 6mo ago
Clamchop 6mo ago
The rest of that same sentence, " – and that if specialised tools are required, they must be provided free of charge when the phone or tablet is purchased," seems to mitigate that concern, no? I suppose it hinges on what the test for a "specialized tool" is.
- Ajedi32 6mo ago
  In that context it seems like "specialized" means "not commercially available", no?
  - varispeed 6mo ago
    Specialised as in created specifically for swapping battery of that specific phone? As in you cannot do it with a generic commercially available tool (e.g. a screwdriver)
    - troupo 6mo ago
      Quote from https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C_202500214 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C... --- start quote --- Article 11 of Regulation (EU) 2023/1542 states that a battery shall be considered readily removable by the end-user where it can be removed from a product with the use of commercially available tools, without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless provided free of charge with the product, proprietary tools, thermal energy, or solvents to disassemble the product. Guidance on tool types can be drawn from standard EN 45554:2020e (2). In the context of the assessment of a product’s ability to be repaired, reused and upgraded, this standard uses the following classification groups: (i) basic tools (including those provided with the product as a spare part) or no tools; (ii) product-group specific tools; (iii) commercially available tools; and (iv) proprietary tools. The concept of commercially available tools mentioned in Article 11 comprises the categories of basic tools or no tools and of commercially available tools as per EN 45554:2020e. The concept of specialised tools laid down in the Regulation refers to product-group specific tools that are not available for purchase by the general public but are not protected by patents either. Article 11 requires that any such specialised tool that might be necessary to have a portable battery removed and replaced is provided free of charge with the product into which the battery is incorporated. As per EN 45554:2020e, proprietary tools refer to tools not available for purchase by the general public, or for which any applicable patent are not available for license under fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. Such tools should not be needed to remove portable batteries --- start quote --- (I fully expect literally no one on HN to spend even a second looking for and reading the relevant texts, and complain about the law being vague or impossible to implement or something)
raw_anon_1111 6mo ago
And lose water resistance…
red_admiral 6mo ago
I presume it means "don't even try doing the printer ink DRM thing".
ricardobayes 6mo ago
That reads true. While replaceability is definitely a good thing, but whether it will end up being a good thing for the average user (and not lead to some further price hikes in the EU market) remains to be seen.
fy20 6mo ago
Everyone is thinking Apple is the target, but they are actually one of the better companies with this. You can buy first-party replacement parts, tools are available. If you take a look at Chinese or sometimes even Samsung phones it's basically impossible to get replacement parts and if you do it may need other parts like the glass back to be replaced as it's impossible to remove it without breaking it.
vrganj 6mo ago
That is a very American view of law that has burned American companies again and again. In EU law, the intent matters, not the letter of the law. No silly loophole lawyering. To quote: >When interpreting EU law, the CJEU pays particular attention to the aim and purpose of EU law (teleological interpretation), rather than focusing exclusively on the wording of the provisions (linguistic interpretation). This is explained by numerous factors, in particular the open-ended and policy-oriented rules of the EU Treaties, as well as by EU legal multilingualism. Under the latter principle, all EU law is equally authentic in all language versions. Hence, the Court cannot rely on the wording of a single version, as a national court can, in order to give an interpretation of the legal provision under consideration. Therefore, in order to decode the meaning of a legal rule, the Court analyses it especially in the light of its purpose (teleological interpretation) as well as its context (systemic interpretation). https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/599364/EPRS_BRI(2017)599364_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/5993...

napolux 6mo ago

better than glued.

mminer237 6mo ago
Heat guns and pryers are commercially available. I don't think this will change anything there.
- napolux 6mo ago
  Also Stanley's Fubar and CAT 797 trucks are commercially available, doesn't mean I will need one of those to change my phone battery :)
- kotaKat 6mo ago
  And Pentalobe screwdrivers are also commercially available now, so Apple doesn't even have to include one...
- fainpul 6mo ago
  You're wrong about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530
  - mminer237 6mo ago
    Thanks. I couldn't find the text for the life of me. Glad to be wrong.

jahnu 6mo ago

Maybe. Maybe not. If my local phone and phone accessories shop can do it for little money in 15 minutes then the current calculus changes for a heck of a lot of people.

ranger_danger 6mo ago
Isn't that already the case though?
- jahnu 6mo ago
  Last time I checked I’d have to leave my phone for a couple of days and the glue factor meant they wouldn’t guarantee it would come back perfectly. My assumption is this might make it a more trivial change.
  - zarzavat 6mo ago
    I don't see what change they can make, at least to an iPhone. The glue is necessary for water resistance.
    - phoronixrly 6mo ago
      Necessary? Gaskets and o-rings haven't been invented yet?
      - philipallstar 6mo ago
        They have, and people preferred smaller phones.
        krs_ 6mo ago
        And then they got larger again.
        philipallstar 6mo ago

Clamchop 6mo ago

The rest of that same sentence, " – and that if specialised tools are required, they must be provided free of charge when the phone or tablet is purchased," seems to mitigate that concern, no? I suppose it hinges on what the test for a "specialized tool" is.

Ajedi32 6mo ago
In that context it seems like "specialized" means "not commercially available", no?
- varispeed 6mo ago
  Specialised as in created specifically for swapping battery of that specific phone? As in you cannot do it with a generic commercially available tool (e.g. a screwdriver)
  - troupo 6mo ago
    Quote from https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C_202500214 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C... --- start quote --- Article 11 of Regulation (EU) 2023/1542 states that a battery shall be considered readily removable by the end-user where it can be removed from a product with the use of commercially available tools, without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless provided free of charge with the product, proprietary tools, thermal energy, or solvents to disassemble the product. Guidance on tool types can be drawn from standard EN 45554:2020e (2). In the context of the assessment of a product’s ability to be repaired, reused and upgraded, this standard uses the following classification groups: (i) basic tools (including those provided with the product as a spare part) or no tools; (ii) product-group specific tools; (iii) commercially available tools; and (iv) proprietary tools. The concept of commercially available tools mentioned in Article 11 comprises the categories of basic tools or no tools and of commercially available tools as per EN 45554:2020e. The concept of specialised tools laid down in the Regulation refers to product-group specific tools that are not available for purchase by the general public but are not protected by patents either. Article 11 requires that any such specialised tool that might be necessary to have a portable battery removed and replaced is provided free of charge with the product into which the battery is incorporated. As per EN 45554:2020e, proprietary tools refer to tools not available for purchase by the general public, or for which any applicable patent are not available for license under fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. Such tools should not be needed to remove portable batteries --- start quote --- (I fully expect literally no one on HN to spend even a second looking for and reading the relevant texts, and complain about the law being vague or impossible to implement or something)

raw_anon_1111 6mo ago

And lose water resistance…

red_admiral 6mo ago

I presume it means "don't even try doing the printer ink DRM thing".

ricardobayes 6mo ago

That reads true. While replaceability is definitely a good thing, but whether it will end up being a good thing for the average user (and not lead to some further price hikes in the EU market) remains to be seen.

fy20 6mo ago

Everyone is thinking Apple is the target, but they are actually one of the better companies with this. You can buy first-party replacement parts, tools are available. If you take a look at Chinese or sometimes even Samsung phones it's basically impossible to get replacement parts and if you do it may need other parts like the glass back to be replaced as it's impossible to remove it without breaking it.

vrganj 6mo ago

That is a very American view of law that has burned American companies again and again. In EU law, the intent matters, not the letter of the law. No silly loophole lawyering. To quote: >When interpreting EU law, the CJEU pays particular attention to the aim and purpose of EU law (teleological interpretation), rather than focusing exclusively on the wording of the provisions (linguistic interpretation). This is explained by numerous factors, in particular the open-ended and policy-oriented rules of the EU Treaties, as well as by EU legal multilingualism. Under the latter principle, all EU law is equally authentic in all language versions. Hence, the Court cannot rely on the wording of a single version, as a national court can, in order to give an interpretation of the legal provision under consideration. Therefore, in order to decode the meaning of a legal rule, the Court analyses it especially in the light of its purpose (teleological interpretation) as well as its context (systemic interpretation). https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/599364/EPRS_BRI(2017)599364_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/5993...