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I think this is part of the reason I am wary of trying it ( including some of the competitor's variants ). They all want you to pay attention, because you may b

I think this is part of the reason I am wary of trying it ( including some of the competitor's variants ). They all want you to pay attention, because you may be forced to make a decision out of the blue. I might as well be in control all the time and not try to course correct at the literal last second.

IgorPartola 6mo ago
A self driving car should have no steering wheel. If it has a steering wheel it is a vote of no confidence from the manufacturer.
- ghaff 6mo ago
  I don't really buy that. There are a lot of situations (e.g. being directed to park in a space at a fairgrounds, ski area, or whatever) that you can't reasonably expect AFAIK to be programmed into a car's computer. Even if a car can legitimately handle roads under most circumstances, they're not going to be able to handle everything.
  - catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
    "Because the Origin does not have manual controls, the NHTSA must issue an exception to the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards to permit operation on public roads" Too bad that project failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(autonomous_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(autonomous_vehicle)
  - butlike 6mo ago
    I think their point was "it's not ready yet."
- grog454 6mo ago
  Throttle and yoke aren't a vote of no confidence from aircraft manufacturers. Some modes of operation are suitable for autopilot and some are not.
  - sobellian 6mo ago
    Would it be a vote of no confidence in Full Self Flying?
    - tclancy 6mo ago
      No, it would be an acknowledgement of the lack of perfection in human systems so far.
  - saalweachter 6mo ago
    I mean, they kinda are. Airline pilots aren't supposed to take a nap, and there are occasionally articles about the various things that have gone wrong because the pilots weren't paying attention.
  - NekkoDroid 6mo ago
    There is a reason that pilots get basically told the ins and outs of a specific plane. Imagine the outrage if people need to do month long training for a specific car just to be able to drive it (and not just a general "here is how cars roughly work and the laws of the road").
- gambiting 6mo ago
  How do you reverse such a car into your own driveway that's positioned in a funny way at an angle and an incline? What if you're parking off road for any reason? Like, you have to be able to manoeuvre your own vehicle sometimes.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
- singpolyma3 6mo ago
  Well we don't have any self driving cars outside of San Francisco. Only cars with advanced driver assistance.
  - lotsofpulp 6mo ago
    Quite a few more places have them now: https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9059119?hl=en https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9059119?hl=en
    - jerlam 6mo ago
      Also in Vegas (Zoox), and China has their own competitive market of self-driving taxis.
- tclancy 6mo ago
  That presents an interesting failure mode challenge.
pmarreck 6mo ago
Interestingly, I think that similar types of arguments are made against "agentic coding" If you don't pay constant attention, you will never notice when it slips in a bug or security issue
- ownagefool 6mo ago
  Sure, but you can do that in a diff after the event, rather than live.
- catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
  Car crash deaths are better known than software bug caused deaths. Worse: a car crash can cause the driver's death; I wouldn't offload work on which my life depends to an experimental tech.
  - TheScaryOne 6mo ago
    Today's car crash deaths are sometimes software bug caused deaths. Toyota failed their forensic audit of their drive by wire code back in 2013. https://capitolweekly.net/toyota-has-settled-hundreds-of-sudden-acceleration-cases/ https://capitolweekly.net/toyota-has-settled-hundreds-of-sud...
x187463 6mo ago
Treat it like a driver assistance system. I treat FSD the same as I treat Augmented Cruise Control and Lane Keep Assist in my CRV. I keep my hands on the steering wheel and follow along with the decision making.
- grvdrm 6mo ago
  Reminds me of a situation not long ago. I’m in left lane on highway. Tesla ahead of me but quite a ways away. I realize as I’m driving that the Tesla is moving quite slow for the left lane driving. And before you say it, yes there are lots of people speeding in highway left lanes too. So - I passed on the right rather than tailgate. Look over and see a guy leaning back in his seat. No hands on wheel. Could’ve been asleep. And driving 10-15 mph slower than you’d expect in that lane. To your point about using it FSD the way you do, makes total sense to me. Which implies you would also cruise at the right speed depending on the lane you are in, unlike my example.
  - x187463 6mo ago
    One of my major complaints about FSD is the 'speed profiles'. You used to be able to set a target speed directly. Now, you can only select a profile. You're either going the exact speed limit, 2-3mph over, or essentially 'with the flow of traffic' which can lead to speeding +15 over the limit.
    - grvdrm 6mo ago
      Didn't know about that feature. Thanks for the illumination. On verge of going full electric and looking at BMW, Lucid, Porsche, Rivian, Tesla. I wonder what's taught to new drivers about this sort of situation. My intuitive feeling (driving for almost 30 years) is you drive with the flow of traffic when traffic is present. I don't see too many left lane drivers glued to speed limits, but it's obvious when someone is a fast or slow.
      - x187463 6mo ago
        It's worth noting that older Tesla's pre-2024, are stuck on an old version of FSD due to compute limitations. Recent FSD, generally, does not hang out in the left lane and is very good at recognizing when vehicles approach from the rear. It will move to the right lane to allow them to pass.
Symmetry 6mo ago
SAE level 2 is just a bad idea. People can't be expected to carefully monitor a car and take over at a moment's notice when it's doing all the driving. My adaptive cruise control is great and I hope to have a future car where I can zone out while it drives and take over after after a few seconds heads up, but the zone between shouldn't be a valid feature.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  I think you mean SAE Level 3. SAE Level 2 is “lane centering” and “adaptive cruise control” [1]. (Level 3 is “when the feature requests, you must drive.) [1] https://www.ncdd.com/images/blog/diagram.png https://www.ncdd.com/images/blog/diagram.png
  - Symmetry 6mo ago
    I meant to include both SAE 2 and 3. I think having both lane keeping and cruise control on at the same time will tend to cause people to lose focus in a way they wouldn't if they had to do one or the other.
- dualvariable 6mo ago
  I don't even use cruise control. I like to be actively switched on all the time constantly making little decisions, including speed, so that I actually am instantly ready if I need to make some big decision. People these days letting the car drive, thinking they can spring into action I think are underestimating just how cold their cache lines are getting and the major page fault they're going to take when they try to take over. And I've seen comments by people that they were letting the car drive itself into a bad situation they could see developing, but didn't jump in to take over right away in anticipation (effectively betting on the car over their own skill but still realizing they had to jump in if the car got it wrong--which is just so incredibly confused).

IgorPartola 6mo ago

A self driving car should have no steering wheel. If it has a steering wheel it is a vote of no confidence from the manufacturer.

ghaff 6mo ago
I don't really buy that. There are a lot of situations (e.g. being directed to park in a space at a fairgrounds, ski area, or whatever) that you can't reasonably expect AFAIK to be programmed into a car's computer. Even if a car can legitimately handle roads under most circumstances, they're not going to be able to handle everything.
- catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
  "Because the Origin does not have manual controls, the NHTSA must issue an exception to the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards to permit operation on public roads" Too bad that project failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(autonomous_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(autonomous_vehicle)
- butlike 6mo ago
  I think their point was "it's not ready yet."
grog454 6mo ago
Throttle and yoke aren't a vote of no confidence from aircraft manufacturers. Some modes of operation are suitable for autopilot and some are not.
- sobellian 6mo ago
  Would it be a vote of no confidence in Full Self Flying?
  - tclancy 6mo ago
    No, it would be an acknowledgement of the lack of perfection in human systems so far.
- saalweachter 6mo ago
  I mean, they kinda are. Airline pilots aren't supposed to take a nap, and there are occasionally articles about the various things that have gone wrong because the pilots weren't paying attention.
- NekkoDroid 6mo ago
  There is a reason that pilots get basically told the ins and outs of a specific plane. Imagine the outrage if people need to do month long training for a specific car just to be able to drive it (and not just a general "here is how cars roughly work and the laws of the road").
gambiting 6mo ago
How do you reverse such a car into your own driveway that's positioned in a funny way at an angle and an incline? What if you're parking off road for any reason? Like, you have to be able to manoeuvre your own vehicle sometimes.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
singpolyma3 6mo ago
Well we don't have any self driving cars outside of San Francisco. Only cars with advanced driver assistance.
- lotsofpulp 6mo ago
  Quite a few more places have them now: https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9059119?hl=en https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9059119?hl=en
  - jerlam 6mo ago
    Also in Vegas (Zoox), and China has their own competitive market of self-driving taxis.
tclancy 6mo ago
That presents an interesting failure mode challenge.

pmarreck 6mo ago

Interestingly, I think that similar types of arguments are made against "agentic coding" If you don't pay constant attention, you will never notice when it slips in a bug or security issue

ownagefool 6mo ago
Sure, but you can do that in a diff after the event, rather than live.
catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
Car crash deaths are better known than software bug caused deaths. Worse: a car crash can cause the driver's death; I wouldn't offload work on which my life depends to an experimental tech.
- TheScaryOne 6mo ago
  Today's car crash deaths are sometimes software bug caused deaths. Toyota failed their forensic audit of their drive by wire code back in 2013. https://capitolweekly.net/toyota-has-settled-hundreds-of-sudden-acceleration-cases/ https://capitolweekly.net/toyota-has-settled-hundreds-of-sud...

x187463 6mo ago

Treat it like a driver assistance system. I treat FSD the same as I treat Augmented Cruise Control and Lane Keep Assist in my CRV. I keep my hands on the steering wheel and follow along with the decision making.

grvdrm 6mo ago
Reminds me of a situation not long ago. I’m in left lane on highway. Tesla ahead of me but quite a ways away. I realize as I’m driving that the Tesla is moving quite slow for the left lane driving. And before you say it, yes there are lots of people speeding in highway left lanes too. So - I passed on the right rather than tailgate. Look over and see a guy leaning back in his seat. No hands on wheel. Could’ve been asleep. And driving 10-15 mph slower than you’d expect in that lane. To your point about using it FSD the way you do, makes total sense to me. Which implies you would also cruise at the right speed depending on the lane you are in, unlike my example.
- x187463 6mo ago
  One of my major complaints about FSD is the 'speed profiles'. You used to be able to set a target speed directly. Now, you can only select a profile. You're either going the exact speed limit, 2-3mph over, or essentially 'with the flow of traffic' which can lead to speeding +15 over the limit.
  - grvdrm 6mo ago
    Didn't know about that feature. Thanks for the illumination. On verge of going full electric and looking at BMW, Lucid, Porsche, Rivian, Tesla. I wonder what's taught to new drivers about this sort of situation. My intuitive feeling (driving for almost 30 years) is you drive with the flow of traffic when traffic is present. I don't see too many left lane drivers glued to speed limits, but it's obvious when someone is a fast or slow.
    - x187463 6mo ago
      It's worth noting that older Tesla's pre-2024, are stuck on an old version of FSD due to compute limitations. Recent FSD, generally, does not hang out in the left lane and is very good at recognizing when vehicles approach from the rear. It will move to the right lane to allow them to pass.

Symmetry 6mo ago

SAE level 2 is just a bad idea. People can't be expected to carefully monitor a car and take over at a moment's notice when it's doing all the driving. My adaptive cruise control is great and I hope to have a future car where I can zone out while it drives and take over after after a few seconds heads up, but the zone between shouldn't be a valid feature.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
I think you mean SAE Level 3. SAE Level 2 is “lane centering” and “adaptive cruise control” [1]. (Level 3 is “when the feature requests, you must drive.) [1] https://www.ncdd.com/images/blog/diagram.png https://www.ncdd.com/images/blog/diagram.png
- Symmetry 6mo ago
  I meant to include both SAE 2 and 3. I think having both lane keeping and cruise control on at the same time will tend to cause people to lose focus in a way they wouldn't if they had to do one or the other.
dualvariable 6mo ago
I don't even use cruise control. I like to be actively switched on all the time constantly making little decisions, including speed, so that I actually am instantly ready if I need to make some big decision. People these days letting the car drive, thinking they can spring into action I think are underestimating just how cold their cache lines are getting and the major page fault they're going to take when they try to take over. And I've seen comments by people that they were letting the car drive itself into a bad situation they could see developing, but didn't jump in to take over right away in anticipation (effectively betting on the car over their own skill but still realizing they had to jump in if the car got it wrong--which is just so incredibly confused).