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Swiss authorities want to reduce dependency on Microsoft
- karmakurtisaani 6mo agoSimply replacing Excel will be a massive challenge. I root for it, but it will be difficult.
- rolph 6mo agoLibreOffice Calc: Free Spreadsheet Software for Windows, Mac, and Linux https://en.libre-office.fr/article.php/libreoffice-calc-free-spreadsheet-software-for-windows-mac-and-linux https://en.libre-office.fr/article.php/libreoffice-calc-free... give it a go. Ive never had problems for my use case.
- cookiengineer 6mo ago> LibreOffice Calc Mentioning libreoffice as competitor to Excel and Access is like you haven't understood the market, at all. Excel is a cross department business automation database, which can sync/pull/push datasets across filesystems and networks. VBA is the single most used language in Enterprise because it allows to automate pretty much any financial workflow. And more importantly: automated by non-programmers. Libreoffice is made for private users, and that's not the same users that VBA powered office documents have.
- rolph 6mo agoare you trying to say that i cant use libre, to automate, share, or collaborate datasets across a network? https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/lo/text/sbasic/shared/vbasupport.html https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/lo/text/sbasic/shared/vb... are you trying to say its too hard to step into libre from VBS? https://libreoffice-basic-reference.readthedocs.io/en/latest/libreoffice-basic-vs-vba/libreoffice-basic-vs-vba.html https://libreoffice-basic-reference.readthedocs.io/en/latest... you can stay with MS if you want, but really you dont have to. also i didnt mention libre as competitor, but as replacement.
- Vaslo 6mo agoYou can do all those things. But as someone who used VBA extensively and often got hired because of my automation skills, not having VBA and other aspects of excel would be a non-starter.
- rolph 6mo agoyour sure? its really not that hard, and it might be useful, if MS ends up finding that final straw that breaks it for everyone, you would be better off having a head start and level ground, rather than staring up a wall for employment. i recommend you orient to it, for future proofing. scripting: https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/guide/scripting.html https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/guide/... API: https://api.libreoffice.org/docs/idl/ref/annotated.html https://api.libreoffice.org/docs/idl/ref/annotated.html BASIC: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/BASIC_Guide https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/BASIC_Guid... Working with VBA Macros https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/lo/text/sbasic/shared/vbasupport.html https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/lo/text/sbasic/shared/vb...
- cookiengineer 6mo agoIt's not a question about implementability. It's a question about compatibility. As long as xlsx files have to be modified, libre office is a non replacement. No business would even dare to risk this from an operational perspective. That's my whole point, and the whole argument why Microsoft created their own "dip" with it. If you as an open source promoter within the company tell C-staff that "you found a solution that might be compatible" they gonna ask you what exactly needs what amount of time. And believe me when I tell you, even getting a sharepoint workflow to run with libreoffice is almost impossible without replacing pretty much everything underneath it. Making MS office as uninteroperable as possible is the reason companies cannot switch, because they have a legal requirement to archive and access the document for at least 10 years (in some industries up to 20 years when it comes to book keeping and accounting). So if you propose libreoffice as a solution that - isn't compatible 1:1 - isn't even guessable how long it takes - forces unpredictable infrastructure changes - ends up not rendering your documents that are _legally mandated_ Then guess what the response of your CEO will be. No amount of downvotes or "opinions" on what is better will change this. I'm a proponent of open source, but leadership of libreoffice does not seem to understand _why_ companies are using Microsoft office. And that is the core problem that has to be fixed. There needs to be a predictable and guaranteeable migration path. And as long as there isn't even a converter wizard or anything that helps you with that, libreoffice is a non starter.
- vrganj 6mo agoThe French government decided on Grist as their replacement. It looks pretty promising: https://www.getgrist.com/ https://www.getgrist.com/
- karmakurtisaani 6mo agoI'm familiar with it, no worries. But my company does way too much with Excel and has in-house coded plug-ins to extend it's functionality. It's not going anywhere.
- Waterluvian 6mo agoI feel like Excel is their one true moat. Everything else is a business play, but Excel is the only truly superior tech compared to the alternatives.
- embedding-shape 6mo agoBesides just being everywhere and being ubiquitous (which isn't really a "tech benefit" anyways) what exactly makes Excel "truly superior tech compared to the alternatives"?
- Waterluvian 6mo agoThere’s a lot of features. I think the one I would present is the enormously complex backwards compatibility support. Companies run on .xls / .xlsx files even if developers are offended by how they use and share them. I think a lot of “just use Libre Office” arguments are much like “just use Linux.” There’s a deep misunderstanding of what the value is with Excel. Being technically equivalent with features scores very few points.
- cwnyth 6mo agoI've never experienced any compatibility issues with XLS(X) in LibreOffice Calc, and I've been Windows-free for over a decade. Sure, some spreadsheets might have unique functions in it, but I doubt that's the case for the majority over people using Excel. I'd also argue that Excel is holding back businesses. Instead of storing information in CSVs (for R or Python processing) or SQL, people rely on it when they shouldn't. It's not just that developers dislike Excel, it's that using it frequently causes huge errors: https://theconversation.com/the-reinhart-rogoff-error-or-how-not-to-excel-at-economics-13646 https://theconversation.com/the-reinhart-rogoff-error-or-how...
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago[dead]
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- hahajk 6mo agoI managed to convince my org to put up a Grist instance. I now use it for everything I would normally use Sheets for, plus a whole lot more. Row/columnwise permissions, file attachments, multiple views over data, python formulas... It's a db not a spreadsheet but it's basically the tool I actually needed when I would reach for excel.
- HiPhish 6mo agoExcel is the most widely used document format, database, software runtime, GUI framework and note taking app. It gives Emacs a run for its money in how much you can abuse and overuse one application.
- gerdesj 6mo agoSix wrongs don't make a right 8)
- jandrewrogers 6mo agoDon't we all.
- stephenhuey 6mo ago> This comes as a surprise, as Microsoft 365 was recently installed on some 54,000 administration workstations Not really surprising. The people Microsoft wined and dined for the contract are not the same people who agree with Thomas Süssli about reducing the dependency. I look forward to seeing them succeed!
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- givemeethekeys 6mo agoAfter so many years of EU countries talking, how much has Microsoft's top and bottom line been affected?
- nxm 6mo agoNil
- tarrant300 6mo agoSwitzerland is not in the EU. That said, if their goal is to get off US big-tech, I feel they're left with Apple for hardware and Google for software, realistically.
- lpcvoid 6mo agoWhat? There's loads of hardware vendors out there. And I'd throw in Linux over google and apple.
- londons_explore 6mo agoEven North Korea has it's own OS, network and application suite... Switzerland could totally be fully computer-independant if they wanted to be.
- sisve 6mo agoWe move slow. But the clima for change is here now, it's been brewing for a decade or so. Expect Europe to not use more money on US services the next two decade. So with inflation you will really see a significant decline. My 5 cents
- drstewart 6mo ago[flagged]
- OKRainbowKid 6mo agoDo you think your comment has any substance beyond expressing your disdain for Europe / the EU? Are you aware that Switzerland is not a member of the EU?
- tahoeskibum 6mo agoThirty years after Windows 95? How about focusing on AI or Starlink to reduce dependence now?
- pojntfx 6mo agoFor AI: https://www.swiss-ai.org/ https://www.swiss-ai.org/ For Starlink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutelsat_OneWeb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutelsat_OneWeb It's debatable whether there is a need for the latter in Switzerland though. They have maybe the best fiber network in Europe, which far outperforms anything Satellite-based. You'll regularly get 25 Gb/s symmetrical on residential connections: https://sschueller.github.io/posts/the-free-market-lie/ https://sschueller.github.io/posts/the-free-market-lie/
- aucisson_masque 6mo agoLol, starlink in Switzerland ? They got the best fiber and the cheapest. They'd laugh at starlink.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago> starlink in Switzerland ? I know a lot of people with Starlink in Schweiz. It's a mountainous country with a strong tradition of outdoorsmanship. From a military preparedness perspective, you're not guiding munitions with terrestrial fibre.
- grim_io 6mo agoYou actually would want to use fibre. It's the most jamming resistant drone control technique. Ukraine and Russia rely on spools of optical cable strapped to drones.
- oblio 6mo ago> From a military preparedness perspective, you're not guiding munitions with terrestrial fibre. https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk/comments/1prtlvg/city_in_ukraine_completely_covered_in_fiber_optic/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk/comments/1prtlvg/city_in_...
- pojntfx 6mo agoFor anyone interested in the current state of things in Switzerland, there is this handy map of which Swiss municipalities are dependent on Microsoft/the US right now: https://mxmap.ch/ https://mxmap.ch/
- 1over137 6mo agoCool map! MX as in mail exchanger. For something as easy (for IT pros at least) as email, that map should be all green!
- arcza 6mo agoNot easy at all. Think about integrating calendars, corporate contacts (from AD), handling RSVP replies said mx server receives and updating the calendar server, securely deal with modern auth (+ legacy krb5 auth, yuk). It's a huge hassle and everything except Exchange only handles 80% of this. Modern expectations now want: web clients (OWA), todo lists, integrated storage (SP/OneDrive), and push notifications to any phone from any vendor. So yeah, the only on prem solution is still Exchange.
- pheggs 6mo agoif you dont mind asking, what dont you like about kerberos? I personally like it quite with certs / hardware token to be honest, most things you list can be setup with some research. The only one I am not sure about is integrated storage, but then I am also not entirely sure what that even is supposed to mean exactly
- arcza 6mo agoThe user experience between a phone, tablet and computer should be symbiotic. Krb is not a first class thing in the mobile world. So users now hav great Krb experience with Outlook.exe but are typing passwords into Safari at owa.example.com (anywhere you type an AD password that isn't lsass or ADFS is really not good posture) So, passwords are bad and the password is a key component of krb. Moving away from passwords is a step in the right direction eg OIDC.
- Cider9986 6mo agoGo for it, I'd say. Switzerland is a fascinating country, they lead in many areas. Zermatt, for example is a wonderful town with no cars.
- eps 6mo agoZermatt is a ski resort for wealthy foreign tousrists, accessible only by train. But, yeah, it has no cars.
- mirekrusin 6mo agoDirect democracy instead of a cult of showman.
- m463 6mo agoDoesn't everyone? ads, microsoft account required, undefeatable telemetry, and all wrapped up in dark patterns and bad user interfaces (perennial microsoft).
- forinti 6mo agoUnfortunately, the pain that Windows has become has yet to prevail over the fear of change for many users.
- Forgeties79 6mo agoAnd onedrive good lord what a pain
- Ifkaluva 6mo agoI feel like this general story “x European country wants to reduce dependency on Microsoft” comes up at least once a year. How do they usually turn out? I have heard Germany/France/? switching to LibreOffice or Linux for some government sector, but I suspect they quietly switch back.
- prmoustache 6mo agoThe whole gendarmerie in France switched more than 2 decades ago first to libreoffice (was openoffice in earlier days) then to their own ubuntu fork. But it worked well because it is military, they can manage long term projects without too much external interference and there is zero friction (if the head decides, the rest follows without asking). In regular public administration, decisions can easily be overturned depending on results of each elections and it is not uncommon to face internal sabotage.
- ozim 6mo agoRecent events make it quite clear that this time it is going to be different. It was like you described earlier. Last year and this year it is basically cumulating over multiple countries. Swiss people are very upset with what is going on with their military spending in US. I do believe they will be serious about all other purchases from US.
- greggoB 6mo ago> Swiss people are very upset with what is going on with their military spending in US Can confirm, as a Swiss person I am flabbergasted at how the federal government keeps pushing for the new fighter jets to be F35s, despite not only the US' currenr erratic behaviour in general, but how it has changed the terms of the purchase deal. Blows my mind, honestly.
- pepa65 6mo agoYou might be under the delusion that Swiss government & military is not corrupt?
- throwfus 6mo agoSooner Europeans boycott US companies the better. US is as rogue state as Russia and China
- slowhadoken 6mo agoMicrosoft is getting creepy. OneDrive has surpassed McAfee as most aggressive proprietary virus.
- a96 6mo agoMicrosoft started creepy in 1978 and has been getting worse every year.
- slowhadoken 6mo agoI clearly remember them in the 1990’s and that was a mess but this 2020’s AI hivemind MS is a whole new beast.
- mistercheph 6mo agoYear of the Linux desktop!
- bilekas 6mo agoEveryone does, Microslops business policy doesn't align with most governments.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- pheggs 6mo agoI have switched my small swiss business (10 people) to linux (servers and desktops) and away from microsoft around 2020. I am extemely happy about the choice. Theres small friction here and there with clients that rely on certain software, but its usually minimal and can be fixed. Some people here talk about how people need excel and how important it was, I have personally never seen that in practice here with any client or company I worked for in the past, but maybe it just went past me. It has not been an issue for me in the past 6 years.
- djhn 6mo agoIf it’s not essentially BYOD and you’re provisioning and monitoring security somehow, would you happen to have any quick tips for hassle-free linux MDM? I’m looking for something appropriate for a similar sized microenterprise.
- pheggs 6mo agoI can share what we do, it might not suit everyone though. We manage the devices through ansible-pull, and we have a small Prometheus metrics exporter on the devices for what I think is good to monitor. Then we have a grafana dashboard, alerts and so on. This suits us because we can manage the servers as well as the devices with ansible. Most users don't have root. If anyone needs help, the person needs to be in the wireguard vpn and the someone helping can ssh into the machine. There's also fleetdm, which we are not using, but might be something you want to consider
- djhn 6mo agoThanks, your setup is probably closer to what I'm looking for than fleetdm.
- pjmlp 6mo agoSo Microsoft 365, Windows, and Azure most likely. I bet they haven't thought about Typescript, VSCode, Github, Linkedin, .NET, npm/node, or the contributions done to Linux kernel, Rust and Python that probably would also require security reviews. Also most of the key contributors to FOSS alternatives are sponsored by US companies as well. Which is the problem this ongoing geopolitics crysis. Decision makers only think about the superficial parts and not the whole extent of the dependency problem.
- unit149 6mo ago[dead]
- mfru 6mo agoRooting for Stalwart to gain traction: https://stalw.art/ https://stalw.art/ EDIT: Not affiliated, I just want it to already be the standard