4 ms·

I think they don't give a shit about 3D printing, especially in CA. It's not like you're competing with a glock19 type hand gun and cornering this market.

sheikhnbake 6mo ago
3D gun printing has come a long way in a short amount of time. 3D printed lower receivers can weather several hundred rounds of 7.62 at this point
- remarkEon 6mo ago
  That makes it useful for a hobbyist, but it is by no means a replacement for a properly manufactured lower.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - Supermancho 6mo ago
    Hobbyist or not, this makes it useful for getting guns (and other gear) from other people.
    - remarkEon 6mo ago
      What I'm saying is that no one is going to build a lower in this manner for a firearm chambered in 7.62 and do anything useful/important with it. Maybe the cartridge size here is a distraction, idk, but this isn't a specification that I would consider common and/or useful for 3D printing a firearm. Even if your nominal intent is just to "finish" a gun with parts you have laying around, it's not going to be something that's consistently reliable.
      - Eisenstein 6mo ago
        Can you not imagine any motives that a person could have for printing a gun where they don't care about long term reliability?
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        Sure, I can imagine any number of motives and Rube Goldberg mechanisms for procuring a firearm to service that motive. My point is that if someone who is desperate to get a firearm has to 3D print one they’re going to pick a simple pistol lower. Not something for a rifle that fires a higher power cartridge. Most rifles that fire 7.62 are not in the AR format.
        Eisenstein 6mo ago
        You don't think someone like Oswald exists in the present day?
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        They demonstrably do, multiple of them, and none of them used 3D printed weapons.
        Eisenstein 6mo ago
        So there are people who would have a use for a high powered rifle with limited durability. > What I'm saying is that no one is going to build a lower in this manner for a firearm chambered in 7.62 and do anything useful/important with it. Maybe the cartridge size here is a distraction, idk, but this isn't a specification that I would consider common and/or useful for 3D printing a firearm. The fact that no one was caught using such a weapon is irrelevant. You stated that there are people out there who would use it, so your statement that "no one" would want to is untrue.
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        >You stated that there are people out there who would use it, so your statement that "no one" would want to is untrue. Huh? There is no evidence that anyone is using a 3D printed 7.62 weapon system to do crimes. Of the existing evidence, criminals overwhelmingly use conventional firearms. I'm not understanding your point. The would-be and successful assassins in the news the last couple years used standard rifles, ranging from 5.56 to .03-06 in caliber. I think you are assuming that criminals are less sensitive to equipment reliability than they actually are. Let me put it this way. If 3D printed firearms were such a game changer, they would already be using them at scale. They are not, and these laws are part of a fundamental misunderstanding about how firearms function and how 3D printing technology works.
      - jdougan 6mo ago
        Look up the WW2 FP-45 Liberator. A bad gun you could use to get a better gun. Theoretically you only need to use it once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        I highly doubt that anyone who 3d prints a lower does so to “use” it (I.e. shoot someone) in order to procure a better firearm.
        jim33442 6mo ago
        I would think they just print multiple guns and switch if one breaks.
        sheikhnbake 6mo ago
        The FGC-9 was used extensively in Myanmar for that exact purpose. The rebels would set up ambushes with FGC-9's and recover better firearms for future use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9#Users_and_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9#Users_and_use
      - sheikhnbake 6mo ago
        I mention 7.62 specifically because most folks not familiar with 3D printed firearms are unaware that such a thing is even possible. 9mm 3DP guns have hit the news cycle repeatedly, less so for higher power cartridges. IIRC, there's a .50 BMG project well underway.
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        You call these project[s], which I think is very accurate for the higher power cartridges. You sound like you've seen a lot of the videos of 3D printed firearms, and from what I can tell they cluster around 9mm and 5.56. There's probably multiple reasons for that, one of which is that those round sizes are more widely available and cheaper, while another is that it is going to be easier to do than something with higher power. So to maybe simplify my point, the technical challenges and inherent safety issues on 7.62 are higher. Thus, projects they shall remain.
        sheikhnbake 6mo ago
        At this point with a 5,000 round endurance for a plastic AK receiver, I think it's fair to say the 'project' has reached maturity. Especially when this is all completed on entry level printers
        remarkEon 5mo ago
        5k rounds is impressive, I will concede the point if that's true. I would like to look at the design of this. Do you have a link to the CAD files, or whatever you have that explains how they deal with pressure issues.
  - sheikhnbake 6mo ago
    Depends on what the intended use is. 3DP firearms have proliferated internationally and have been used against conventional militaries. Agreed they aren't a replacement, but practical use cases exist.
- DennisP 6mo ago
  You can easily go through a couple hundred rounds in one visit to the range.
  - alterom 6mo ago
    >You can easily go through a couple hundred rounds in one visit to the range. Range shooting is not what they're trying to legislate though. Whoever killed that healthcare CEO didn't need a hundred rounds. This legislation is insanely, horrendously bad and harmful, but "3D printed gun components are useless" isn't a solid argument against it. They're useful enough. The real arguments, as others said, are: 1. You can achieve much more already without 3D printers 2. The legislation won't achieve its stated objective as any "blueprint detector" DRM will be trivial to circumvent on many levels (hardware, firmware, software) 3. Any semblance of that DRM being required will kill 3D printing as we know it (the text of the law is so broad that merely having a computer without the antigun spyware would be illegal if it means it can drive a 3D printer)
    - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
      > Range shooting is not what they're trying to legislate though. It's the thing gun manufacturers are selling to their customer base though. The theory was they were lobbying for this to prevent competition, but it's not good enough to actually compete with them. > Whoever killed that healthcare CEO didn't need a hundred rounds. Luigi Mangione didn't have a criminal record. Given his apparent political alignment, he presumably used 3D printed parts for trolling purposes since there was no actual need for him to do so. He could have bought any firearm from any of the places they're ordinarily sold.
      - alterom 6mo ago
        >It's the thing gun manufacturers are selling to their customer base though. The theory was they were lobbying for this to prevent competition Does anyone actually believe this? Is there any funds for this theory? Seems to be too far fetched to be even worth sitting. >Luigi Mangione didn't have a criminal record That really isn't the point (he still doesn't have a criminal record, by the way). The point was that the stated danger of 3D printed guns is their use by criminals for criminal purposes, not economic competition to established gun manufacturers.
- sheikhnbake 6mo ago
  I stand corrected, the Plastikov V4 has endured 5,000 rounds
  - webnrrd2k 6mo ago
    It looks like a Plastikov uses a lot of metal Kalashnikov parts that you'd need to get from a kit or machine yourself or something, so I don't think it's really fair to call that gun a 3D printed gun. It uses printed parts, but the barrel, trigger, etc... aren't printed.
    - sheikhnbake 6mo ago
      That's the entire point. The only federally regulated part that requires a background check is the receiver, which can be made on entry level printers by virtually anyone that can read.
sleepybrett 6mo ago
Rebels in Myanmar were using various 3d printed guns just after the military coup (famously the FGC-9), which is like a PDW form factor chambered in 9mm. The barrels are metal, and i think the chamber as well, but the whole fire control group i think is all printed and of course all the furniture is plastic as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K1qXxONls4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K1qXxONls4
- BoneShard 6mo ago
  well, it's not because they shopped around and were like - yeah, we don't like these AK-74s and ar15s, let's just use FGC-9 instead.

sheikhnbake 6mo ago

3D gun printing has come a long way in a short amount of time. 3D printed lower receivers can weather several hundred rounds of 7.62 at this point

remarkEon 6mo ago
That makes it useful for a hobbyist, but it is by no means a replacement for a properly manufactured lower.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- Supermancho 6mo ago
  Hobbyist or not, this makes it useful for getting guns (and other gear) from other people.
  - remarkEon 6mo ago
    What I'm saying is that no one is going to build a lower in this manner for a firearm chambered in 7.62 and do anything useful/important with it. Maybe the cartridge size here is a distraction, idk, but this isn't a specification that I would consider common and/or useful for 3D printing a firearm. Even if your nominal intent is just to "finish" a gun with parts you have laying around, it's not going to be something that's consistently reliable.
    - Eisenstein 6mo ago
      Can you not imagine any motives that a person could have for printing a gun where they don't care about long term reliability?
      - remarkEon 6mo ago
        Sure, I can imagine any number of motives and Rube Goldberg mechanisms for procuring a firearm to service that motive. My point is that if someone who is desperate to get a firearm has to 3D print one they’re going to pick a simple pistol lower. Not something for a rifle that fires a higher power cartridge. Most rifles that fire 7.62 are not in the AR format.
        Eisenstein 6mo ago
        You don't think someone like Oswald exists in the present day?
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        They demonstrably do, multiple of them, and none of them used 3D printed weapons.
        Eisenstein 6mo ago
        So there are people who would have a use for a high powered rifle with limited durability. > What I'm saying is that no one is going to build a lower in this manner for a firearm chambered in 7.62 and do anything useful/important with it. Maybe the cartridge size here is a distraction, idk, but this isn't a specification that I would consider common and/or useful for 3D printing a firearm. The fact that no one was caught using such a weapon is irrelevant. You stated that there are people out there who would use it, so your statement that "no one" would want to is untrue.
        remarkEon 6mo ago
        >You stated that there are people out there who would use it, so your statement that "no one" would want to is untrue. Huh? There is no evidence that anyone is using a 3D printed 7.62 weapon system to do crimes. Of the existing evidence, criminals overwhelmingly use conventional firearms. I'm not understanding your point. The would-be and successful assassins in the news the last couple years used standard rifles, ranging from 5.56 to .03-06 in caliber. I think you are assuming that criminals are less sensitive to equipment reliability than they actually are. Let me put it this way. If 3D printed firearms were such a game changer, they would already be using them at scale. They are not, and these laws are part of a fundamental misunderstanding about how firearms function and how 3D printing technology works.
    - jdougan 6mo ago
      Look up the WW2 FP-45 Liberator. A bad gun you could use to get a better gun. Theoretically you only need to use it once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator
      - remarkEon 6mo ago
        I highly doubt that anyone who 3d prints a lower does so to “use” it (I.e. shoot someone) in order to procure a better firearm.
        jim33442 6mo ago
        I would think they just print multiple guns and switch if one breaks.
        sheikhnbake 6mo ago
        The FGC-9 was used extensively in Myanmar for that exact purpose. The rebels would set up ambushes with FGC-9's and recover better firearms for future use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9#Users_and_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9#Users_and_use
    - sheikhnbake 6mo ago
      I mention 7.62 specifically because most folks not familiar with 3D printed firearms are unaware that such a thing is even possible. 9mm 3DP guns have hit the news cycle repeatedly, less so for higher power cartridges. IIRC, there's a .50 BMG project well underway.
      - remarkEon 6mo ago
        You call these project[s], which I think is very accurate for the higher power cartridges. You sound like you've seen a lot of the videos of 3D printed firearms, and from what I can tell they cluster around 9mm and 5.56. There's probably multiple reasons for that, one of which is that those round sizes are more widely available and cheaper, while another is that it is going to be easier to do than something with higher power. So to maybe simplify my point, the technical challenges and inherent safety issues on 7.62 are higher. Thus, projects they shall remain.
        sheikhnbake 6mo ago
        At this point with a 5,000 round endurance for a plastic AK receiver, I think it's fair to say the 'project' has reached maturity. Especially when this is all completed on entry level printers
        remarkEon 5mo ago
        5k rounds is impressive, I will concede the point if that's true. I would like to look at the design of this. Do you have a link to the CAD files, or whatever you have that explains how they deal with pressure issues.
- sheikhnbake 6mo ago
  Depends on what the intended use is. 3DP firearms have proliferated internationally and have been used against conventional militaries. Agreed they aren't a replacement, but practical use cases exist.
DennisP 6mo ago
You can easily go through a couple hundred rounds in one visit to the range.
- alterom 6mo ago
  >You can easily go through a couple hundred rounds in one visit to the range. Range shooting is not what they're trying to legislate though. Whoever killed that healthcare CEO didn't need a hundred rounds. This legislation is insanely, horrendously bad and harmful, but "3D printed gun components are useless" isn't a solid argument against it. They're useful enough. The real arguments, as others said, are: 1. You can achieve much more already without 3D printers 2. The legislation won't achieve its stated objective as any "blueprint detector" DRM will be trivial to circumvent on many levels (hardware, firmware, software) 3. Any semblance of that DRM being required will kill 3D printing as we know it (the text of the law is so broad that merely having a computer without the antigun spyware would be illegal if it means it can drive a 3D printer)
  - AnthonyMouse 6mo ago
    > Range shooting is not what they're trying to legislate though. It's the thing gun manufacturers are selling to their customer base though. The theory was they were lobbying for this to prevent competition, but it's not good enough to actually compete with them. > Whoever killed that healthcare CEO didn't need a hundred rounds. Luigi Mangione didn't have a criminal record. Given his apparent political alignment, he presumably used 3D printed parts for trolling purposes since there was no actual need for him to do so. He could have bought any firearm from any of the places they're ordinarily sold.
    - alterom 6mo ago
      >It's the thing gun manufacturers are selling to their customer base though. The theory was they were lobbying for this to prevent competition Does anyone actually believe this? Is there any funds for this theory? Seems to be too far fetched to be even worth sitting. >Luigi Mangione didn't have a criminal record That really isn't the point (he still doesn't have a criminal record, by the way). The point was that the stated danger of 3D printed guns is their use by criminals for criminal purposes, not economic competition to established gun manufacturers.
sheikhnbake 6mo ago
I stand corrected, the Plastikov V4 has endured 5,000 rounds
- webnrrd2k 6mo ago
  It looks like a Plastikov uses a lot of metal Kalashnikov parts that you'd need to get from a kit or machine yourself or something, so I don't think it's really fair to call that gun a 3D printed gun. It uses printed parts, but the barrel, trigger, etc... aren't printed.
  - sheikhnbake 6mo ago
    That's the entire point. The only federally regulated part that requires a background check is the receiver, which can be made on entry level printers by virtually anyone that can read.

sleepybrett 6mo ago

Rebels in Myanmar were using various 3d printed guns just after the military coup (famously the FGC-9), which is like a PDW form factor chambered in 9mm. The barrels are metal, and i think the chamber as well, but the whole fire control group i think is all printed and of course all the furniture is plastic as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K1qXxONls4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K1qXxONls4

BoneShard 6mo ago
well, it's not because they shopped around and were like - yeah, we don't like these AK-74s and ar15s, let's just use FGC-9 instead.