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The entire purpose of government is to have a monopoly on violence. Democracies give their government the power to decide when and against whom to deploy violen

The entire purpose of government is to have a monopoly on violence. Democracies give their government the power to decide when and against whom to deploy violence. There is a real difference between giving a democratic government the tools to kill people vs attempting to kill people yourself. If you don’t believe this then you don’t believe in democracy.

pesus 7mo ago
I'm not sure the next batch of schoolgirls getting bombed will particularly care whether the choice was made "democratically" or not. I also won't particularly care about the distinction when AI is inevitably used to enact violence on the US population.
- GMoromisato 7mo ago
  Agreed--but so what? If you believe in democracy, you work within democratic means to enact your views. If you don't believe in democracy and use violence outside the system, then you are an enemy of democracy.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - mvc 7mo ago
    Did the suffragettes not believe in democracy?
    - GMoromisato 7mo ago
      I don't know enough about the suffragettes, but didn't they get new laws passed to gain the right to vote? That sounds like working within democratic means. A better example is the Civil War. The southern states refused to accept the free and fair election of Lincoln and decided to secede, which was not allowed by the Constitution. Are you arguing that the Confederates were right to violate the law just because they believed they were right?
      - pesus 7mo ago
        Ah, the classic "people excluded from the democratic process must only work within the democratic process". It might be worth looking into what the suffragettes did, because it wasn't politely begging men to please let them vote. Have you not heard of the labor movement? Or abolitionists? Or the founding of this country? Or people fighting against Nazi control of their country? All of those worked outside "legal" means. The law is quite often irrelevant to what's right or moral, and dying on the hill of breaking the law ensures no change can ever occur when a system or person in power inevitably wrongs people.
        GMoromisato 7mo ago
        Protesting is within the democratic process. Labor strikes are within the democratic process. Civil disobedience is within the democratic process (they were prepared to suffer the consequences, including jail time). But throwing Molotov cocktails is terrorism. And I don't believe (please correct me) that a terrorist has ever gotten new laws passed by using terror.
        unethical_ban 6mo ago
        Check the history of Ireland.
        pocksuppet 6mo ago
        Almost every peaceful protest in history only caused change if it was backed up by a more violent alternative. TPTB (TPTW?) accepted the minimum amount of the requested change that causes the violence to stop, and then claimed it was the peaceful protest that made them do so.
shakna 7mo ago
> The entire purpose of government is to have a monopoly on violence. ... Isn't that rather against the spirit of the US' constitution? I can see it being a thought with other nations, but not this particular one. > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Which kinda follows the spirit of English Common Law: > The ... last auxiliary right of the subject ... is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is ... declared by ... statute, and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression. - Sir William Blackstone A "monopoly on violence" is exactly the thing our laws are supposed to protect us against. Because if a state has that, then they have a monopoly against all rights, because they alone can employ violence to curb those who do not subscribe to the state's ideology. I'm pretty much a pacifist. I _like_ Australia's gun laws. But, a government's purpose is to protect their people. They are to be representative - or to be replaced. If they leave no other choice for that, then violence is the only answer left.
- tines 7mo ago
  The above posts forgot the word "legitimate" before "monopoly": a state is defined as the entity that has the legitimate monopoly on violence within a defined geographic area. A state can cease to have the legitimate monopoly before they cease to have the monopoly.
  - GMoromisato 7mo ago
    I agree with this. I should have said that.
- GMoromisato 7mo ago
  I don't see the contradiction. What we mean by a "monopoly on violence" is that the government decides who and under what conditions gets to commit violence. The government orders soldiers to kill enemies. Law enforcement officers are allowed to use deadly force under certain conditions. And in the US, citizens are allowed to use deadly force under certain conditions. The key issue is that government (via courts) is the one that decides whether violence is justified or not. You're right that a government that no longer represents its people must be replaced. But that's not the case in America. The conflict in America is between two different groups of people with different ideas about what the right thing to do is. So far, these two groups have used democracy to get their way. As long as that continues, there is no problem. But when people use violence outside government law, just because they don't agree with the decisions of the government, then that's not justice--that's just terrorism.
lostlogin 7mo ago
> There is a real difference between giving a democratic government the tools to kill people vs attempting to kill people yourself. If you don’t believe this then you don’t believe in democracy. Is this what we just saw with America attacking Iran?
- GMoromisato 7mo ago
  Yes. Whether you agree with it or not, the attack on Iran was legally ordered within the bounds of American law. It may have been a stupid order, but it was not unconstitutional.
slopinthebag 7mo ago
This is a distinction without meaning. It makes no moral difference who dispenses justice, if said justice is justified.
- GMoromisato 7mo ago
  Except in our system of government, it is the government (via the courts) that decides what is "justified". It is literally called the "Judicial System". You can't just decide on your own that violence is justified.
  - pocksuppet 6mo ago
    You can, but the government really doesn't like having its authority disobeyed, and there will be consequences.

pesus 7mo ago

I'm not sure the next batch of schoolgirls getting bombed will particularly care whether the choice was made "democratically" or not. I also won't particularly care about the distinction when AI is inevitably used to enact violence on the US population.

GMoromisato 7mo ago
Agreed--but so what? If you believe in democracy, you work within democratic means to enact your views. If you don't believe in democracy and use violence outside the system, then you are an enemy of democracy.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- mvc 7mo ago
  Did the suffragettes not believe in democracy?
  - GMoromisato 7mo ago
    I don't know enough about the suffragettes, but didn't they get new laws passed to gain the right to vote? That sounds like working within democratic means. A better example is the Civil War. The southern states refused to accept the free and fair election of Lincoln and decided to secede, which was not allowed by the Constitution. Are you arguing that the Confederates were right to violate the law just because they believed they were right?
    - pesus 7mo ago
      Ah, the classic "people excluded from the democratic process must only work within the democratic process". It might be worth looking into what the suffragettes did, because it wasn't politely begging men to please let them vote. Have you not heard of the labor movement? Or abolitionists? Or the founding of this country? Or people fighting against Nazi control of their country? All of those worked outside "legal" means. The law is quite often irrelevant to what's right or moral, and dying on the hill of breaking the law ensures no change can ever occur when a system or person in power inevitably wrongs people.
      - GMoromisato 7mo ago
        Protesting is within the democratic process. Labor strikes are within the democratic process. Civil disobedience is within the democratic process (they were prepared to suffer the consequences, including jail time). But throwing Molotov cocktails is terrorism. And I don't believe (please correct me) that a terrorist has ever gotten new laws passed by using terror.
        unethical_ban 6mo ago
        Check the history of Ireland.
        pocksuppet 6mo ago
        Almost every peaceful protest in history only caused change if it was backed up by a more violent alternative. TPTB (TPTW?) accepted the minimum amount of the requested change that causes the violence to stop, and then claimed it was the peaceful protest that made them do so.

shakna 7mo ago

> The entire purpose of government is to have a monopoly on violence. ... Isn't that rather against the spirit of the US' constitution? I can see it being a thought with other nations, but not this particular one. > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Which kinda follows the spirit of English Common Law: > The ... last auxiliary right of the subject ... is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is ... declared by ... statute, and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression. - Sir William Blackstone A "monopoly on violence" is exactly the thing our laws are supposed to protect us against. Because if a state has that, then they have a monopoly against all rights, because they alone can employ violence to curb those who do not subscribe to the state's ideology. I'm pretty much a pacifist. I _like_ Australia's gun laws. But, a government's purpose is to protect their people. They are to be representative - or to be replaced. If they leave no other choice for that, then violence is the only answer left.

tines 7mo ago
The above posts forgot the word "legitimate" before "monopoly": a state is defined as the entity that has the legitimate monopoly on violence within a defined geographic area. A state can cease to have the legitimate monopoly before they cease to have the monopoly.
- GMoromisato 7mo ago
  I agree with this. I should have said that.
GMoromisato 7mo ago
I don't see the contradiction. What we mean by a "monopoly on violence" is that the government decides who and under what conditions gets to commit violence. The government orders soldiers to kill enemies. Law enforcement officers are allowed to use deadly force under certain conditions. And in the US, citizens are allowed to use deadly force under certain conditions. The key issue is that government (via courts) is the one that decides whether violence is justified or not. You're right that a government that no longer represents its people must be replaced. But that's not the case in America. The conflict in America is between two different groups of people with different ideas about what the right thing to do is. So far, these two groups have used democracy to get their way. As long as that continues, there is no problem. But when people use violence outside government law, just because they don't agree with the decisions of the government, then that's not justice--that's just terrorism.

lostlogin 7mo ago

> There is a real difference between giving a democratic government the tools to kill people vs attempting to kill people yourself. If you don’t believe this then you don’t believe in democracy. Is this what we just saw with America attacking Iran?

GMoromisato 7mo ago
Yes. Whether you agree with it or not, the attack on Iran was legally ordered within the bounds of American law. It may have been a stupid order, but it was not unconstitutional.

slopinthebag 7mo ago

This is a distinction without meaning. It makes no moral difference who dispenses justice, if said justice is justified.

GMoromisato 7mo ago
Except in our system of government, it is the government (via the courts) that decides what is "justified". It is literally called the "Judicial System". You can't just decide on your own that violence is justified.
- pocksuppet 6mo ago
  You can, but the government really doesn't like having its authority disobeyed, and there will be consequences.