4 ms·

Moreover, Technique X does not actually provide any significant value. The whole steer-by-wire in CT happened because Musk wanted a yoke as the control system.

by cyberax 7mo ago

Moreover, Technique X does not actually provide any significant value. The whole steer-by-wire in CT happened because Musk wanted a yoke as the control system. And a yoke requires progressive steering which is impractical without steer-by-wire.

rootusrootus 7mo ago
> does not actually provide any significant value If that were true, it would not explain why other manufacturers are headed the same direction. The CT is not the only steer-by-wire vehicle.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- michaelt 7mo ago
  Vehicles include low-utility features for market positioning all the time. Do buyers need a motorised hood ornament? A tiny vase built into the dashboard? A built-in champagne chiller? Gull wing doors? A spoiler and a 300-horsepower engine? If it boosts sales by giving the vehicle a distinctive character, though, there's a place in the market for that tiny vase.
  - nickff 7mo ago
    The motorized hood ornaments on Rolls Royce vehicles were a solution to the problem of people being injured by, or stealing the (Spirit of Ecstasy) ornaments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ecstasy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ecstasy
    - soopypoos 7mo ago
      How does it being motorized prevent injury?
      - sarchertech 7mo ago
        > Today's Spirit of Ecstasy, from the 2003 Phantom model onward, stands at 3 inches (7.6 cm) and, for the safety of any person being accidentally hit, is mounted on a spring-loaded mechanism designed to retract instantly into the radiator shell if struck from any direction.
        soopypoos 7mo ago
        I don't think that mentions it being motorized
        sarchertech 7mo ago
        The motor allows you to raise it after it has been retracted.
        soopypoos 7mo ago
        Then why is it spring-loaded?
        SR2Z 7mo ago
        > For the safety of any person being accidentally hit (the spring handles the retraction)
        soopypoos 7mo ago
        But if a motor is needed to counter the retracting spring, doesn't that mean any impact must overcome the motor before the spring will engage?
        lmm 7mo ago
        Presumably the motor runs once to extend it and then it locks into position (with some kind of mechanical catch that's calibrated to come loose if you hit anything), rather than being constantly running.
- cyberax 7mo ago
  What other manufacturers? There's Mercedes EQS and Geely. Both are trialing it in one model each as luxury gimmicks.
rconti 7mo ago
steer-by-wire makes safety nannies way easier, eg, the ones that jerk the wheel out of your hands when they decide you're too close to a line on the road.
- Scholmo 7mo ago
  I don't think thats true. Its power steering already and cars use that to turn a wheel when you are not driving. So why would that make it safer?
  - rconti 7mo ago
    I didn't say safer, I said easier. https://ddl.stanford.edu/publications/thesis/steer-wire-implications-vehicle-handling-and-safety https://ddl.stanford.edu/publications/thesis/steer-wire-impl... https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/1qnkxpz/reason_for_adas_delay_steerbywire_is_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/1qnkxpz/reason_for_ad...
    - Scholmo 7mo ago
      Yeah sry but I meant easier. But why do you think it would make it easier? Power-steering doesn't mean there are sensors build in or more precise ones. Your reddit comment references autonomes vehicle and in that case it shouldn't matter if the car also moves a steering wheel no one is using while it moves the wheels which is a lot heavier. And in case of your nanny, the main argument of your referenced paper are issues with the hands of the driver. In that case it could make it better for the driver, I might agree, but I would then question how the driver acts if the wheel is suddenly / temporarily not aligned with the wheel. I might also argue that in such a case were my thumb gets in the way, it might be an emergency and i wouldn't worry then?
wat10000 7mo ago
Other models got the yoke but not the steer by wire.
- cyberax 7mo ago
  Yes. And it was a disaster without progressive steering, they quietly switched back to the round wheel.
ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
> And a yoke requires progressive steering which is impractical without steer-by-wire. But also look at Citroën's DIRAVI system, used on the CX, SM, and some XMs. There's no direct mechanical link between the steering wheel and the rack when the system is pressurised. When you turn the wheel a kind of dogbone link thing pushes a spool valve one way or the other allowing hydraulic fluid to push the rack along, which pushes the other end of the link back to shut the fluid off again. So far, so similar to the Danfoss valve in a conventional power-assisted steering system, except that uses a rotary valve and a big torsion spring in the steering rack (that's why your steering wheel feels springy with the engine off). But DIRAVI is fully powered with no mechanical link, so how do you get increasing resistance with increasing speed? Well, there's a governor on the gearbox that allows hydraulic fluid into a little cylinder that pushes a spring-loaded roller against a heart-shaped cam attached to the steering wheel shaft. This will try to spring back to the middle, and the faster you go the harder it springs back. At 70mph you can barely move the steering wheel, but it will flick a large heavy car from lane to lane with fingertip pressure. You have to get used to this and for the first few miles you'll be zig-zagging down the road like you're tacking a dinghy, but after that you'll get used to just thinking about your right pinky finger being a gram heavier and going round a corner. I've driven some seriously high-end sports cars with legendary handling and performance and they feel pretty rough and tractory now ;-) If the pressure fails of course then there's no powered steering (notice I say powered, not power-assisted), although in practice what tends to happen is that the "resistance" part goes first giving you very sensitive steering. What happens once there's no pressure is that the steering wheel moves about 20° before you run the valve to its end and then the dogbone pushes directly on the drive gear for the rack. So the steering is very loose and wobbly but you can at least steer well enough to get it out of the parking space and into the workshop. You still have brakes for an hour or so if the pump belt breaks, and enough steering to get safely to the side of the road, or at least out of the fast lane. In the 1960s they had a prototype Citroën DS controlled by a joystick using pretty much the same setup (hydraulic valve to push the rack around, heart-shaped cam to apply resistance). Apparently it was very comfortable and natural to drive but ultimately a bit to weird even for Citroën. Not a scrap of electronics in it, unless you count the pressure switch and dashboard lightbulb.
- psd1 7mo ago

by cyberax 7mo ago

rootusrootus 7mo ago

> does not actually provide any significant value If that were true, it would not explain why other manufacturers are headed the same direction. The CT is not the only steer-by-wire vehicle.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
michaelt 7mo ago
Vehicles include low-utility features for market positioning all the time. Do buyers need a motorised hood ornament? A tiny vase built into the dashboard? A built-in champagne chiller? Gull wing doors? A spoiler and a 300-horsepower engine? If it boosts sales by giving the vehicle a distinctive character, though, there's a place in the market for that tiny vase.
- nickff 7mo ago
  The motorized hood ornaments on Rolls Royce vehicles were a solution to the problem of people being injured by, or stealing the (Spirit of Ecstasy) ornaments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ecstasy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ecstasy
  - soopypoos 7mo ago
    How does it being motorized prevent injury?
    - sarchertech 7mo ago
      > Today's Spirit of Ecstasy, from the 2003 Phantom model onward, stands at 3 inches (7.6 cm) and, for the safety of any person being accidentally hit, is mounted on a spring-loaded mechanism designed to retract instantly into the radiator shell if struck from any direction.
      - soopypoos 7mo ago
        I don't think that mentions it being motorized
        sarchertech 7mo ago
        The motor allows you to raise it after it has been retracted.
        soopypoos 7mo ago
        Then why is it spring-loaded?
        SR2Z 7mo ago
        > For the safety of any person being accidentally hit (the spring handles the retraction)
        soopypoos 7mo ago
        But if a motor is needed to counter the retracting spring, doesn't that mean any impact must overcome the motor before the spring will engage?
        lmm 7mo ago
        Presumably the motor runs once to extend it and then it locks into position (with some kind of mechanical catch that's calibrated to come loose if you hit anything), rather than being constantly running.
cyberax 7mo ago
What other manufacturers? There's Mercedes EQS and Geely. Both are trialing it in one model each as luxury gimmicks.

rconti 7mo ago

steer-by-wire makes safety nannies way easier, eg, the ones that jerk the wheel out of your hands when they decide you're too close to a line on the road.

Scholmo 7mo ago
I don't think thats true. Its power steering already and cars use that to turn a wheel when you are not driving. So why would that make it safer?
- rconti 7mo ago
  I didn't say safer, I said easier. https://ddl.stanford.edu/publications/thesis/steer-wire-implications-vehicle-handling-and-safety https://ddl.stanford.edu/publications/thesis/steer-wire-impl... https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/1qnkxpz/reason_for_adas_delay_steerbywire_is_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/1qnkxpz/reason_for_ad...
  - Scholmo 7mo ago
    Yeah sry but I meant easier. But why do you think it would make it easier? Power-steering doesn't mean there are sensors build in or more precise ones. Your reddit comment references autonomes vehicle and in that case it shouldn't matter if the car also moves a steering wheel no one is using while it moves the wheels which is a lot heavier. And in case of your nanny, the main argument of your referenced paper are issues with the hands of the driver. In that case it could make it better for the driver, I might agree, but I would then question how the driver acts if the wheel is suddenly / temporarily not aligned with the wheel. I might also argue that in such a case were my thumb gets in the way, it might be an emergency and i wouldn't worry then?

wat10000 7mo ago

Other models got the yoke but not the steer by wire.

cyberax 7mo ago
Yes. And it was a disaster without progressive steering, they quietly switched back to the round wheel.

ErroneousBosh 7mo ago

> And a yoke requires progressive steering which is impractical without steer-by-wire. But also look at Citroën's DIRAVI system, used on the CX, SM, and some XMs. There's no direct mechanical link between the steering wheel and the rack when the system is pressurised. When you turn the wheel a kind of dogbone link thing pushes a spool valve one way or the other allowing hydraulic fluid to push the rack along, which pushes the other end of the link back to shut the fluid off again. So far, so similar to the Danfoss valve in a conventional power-assisted steering system, except that uses a rotary valve and a big torsion spring in the steering rack (that's why your steering wheel feels springy with the engine off). But DIRAVI is fully powered with no mechanical link, so how do you get increasing resistance with increasing speed? Well, there's a governor on the gearbox that allows hydraulic fluid into a little cylinder that pushes a spring-loaded roller against a heart-shaped cam attached to the steering wheel shaft. This will try to spring back to the middle, and the faster you go the harder it springs back. At 70mph you can barely move the steering wheel, but it will flick a large heavy car from lane to lane with fingertip pressure. You have to get used to this and for the first few miles you'll be zig-zagging down the road like you're tacking a dinghy, but after that you'll get used to just thinking about your right pinky finger being a gram heavier and going round a corner. I've driven some seriously high-end sports cars with legendary handling and performance and they feel pretty rough and tractory now ;-) If the pressure fails of course then there's no powered steering (notice I say powered, not power-assisted), although in practice what tends to happen is that the "resistance" part goes first giving you very sensitive steering. What happens once there's no pressure is that the steering wheel moves about 20° before you run the valve to its end and then the dogbone pushes directly on the drive gear for the rack. So the steering is very loose and wobbly but you can at least steer well enough to get it out of the parking space and into the workshop. You still have brakes for an hour or so if the pump belt breaks, and enough steering to get safely to the side of the road, or at least out of the fast lane. In the 1960s they had a prototype Citroën DS controlled by a joystick using pretty much the same setup (hydraulic valve to push the rack around, heart-shaped cam to apply resistance). Apparently it was very comfortable and natural to drive but ultimately a bit to weird even for Citroën. Not a scrap of electronics in it, unless you count the pressure switch and dashboard lightbulb.

psd1 7mo ago