6 ms·

After reading a bunch of negative comments here, let me add a little on the bright side. I've been using Thunderbird for many years, currently both at home and

by narag 6mo ago

After reading a bunch of negative comments here, let me add a little on the bright side. I've been using Thunderbird for many years, currently both at home and at work to manage gmail accounts, pop at home, imap in the office. It works great for me, with a few annoyances but nothing serious. As for the donations, Thunderbird seems to be somehow apart from Mozilla now, so I don't think much about specific org structure and will gladly donate. Maybe on paper there're dozens of alternatives, but when I consider my specific requirements, I haven't found anything better, YMMV.

Skywalker13 6mo ago
I use Thunderbird from the beginning when it was still named Firebird (I switched from Outlook Express). I think that it's a good product because it continues to do the job since more than 20 years. Me too I don't understand the negative comments. It's free (MPL license), it's packaged by Debian. All good. I don't care about Mozilla.
- Skywalker13 6mo ago
  I just check something because my memory as faults... Firebird was the name of Firefox and the mail client was called something like Mozilla mail or something else.
  - CamouflagedKiwi 6mo ago
    It was originally Minotaur (when the browser was Phoenix), then they were Firebird and Thunderbird, until the browser renamed to avoid a name clash.
    - Foobar8568 6mo ago
      I really don't remember (+quick check) Firebird for the email client, do you have source for this?
      - prmoustache 6mo ago
        Firebird was the browser's name, after phoenix and before rebranding to firefox.
        dizhn 6mo ago
        Firebird was actually the database whose name they hijacked when they had access to AOL's legal army. Also K9Mail is now Thunderbird for Android.
        prmoustache 6mo ago
        They didn't really hijacked anything. Firebird made sense coming from phoenix. It wasn't a good choice considering the database existed before but it wasn't really an hijack in the sense that both are significantly different product that trademarks wouldn't have clashed. It was just annoying when doing web searches (similarly to gemini the google AI product vs the protocol).
        dizhn 6mo ago
        It wasn't that simple. I couldn't find Firebird's original position post but this is close enough. https://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article3097.html https://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article3097.html
        Foobar8568 6mo ago
        So it wasn't used before Thunderbird, that was the point of OP and myself. We were talking about the email client(!). And I was an user of firebird, the database.
        prmoustache 6mo ago
        Yes that is a confirmation.
      - wisidisi 6mo ago
        Predecessor of Firefox was Firebird, and before that it was even called Phoenix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox#Name_changes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox#Name_changes
- mixmastamyk 6mo ago
  I’ve used it since it was called Netscape Mail. ;-)
Levitating 6mo ago
> Thunderbird seems to be somehow apart from Mozilla now I don't think that's the case. "Thunderbird is part of MZLA Technologies Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation." Thunderbirds sourcecode is literally part of the same mercury codebase as Firefox. Thunderbird does have a very small team, and I think everyone that uses it should considering donating.
- Vinnl 6mo ago
  Yeah it's all a bit complex (just like the US tax code, I suppose). MZLA (which makes Thunderbird) is a subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. The Mozilla Corporation (which makes Firefox) is also a subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. In practice, this means that the people running Firefox day-to-day aren't the people running Thunderbird day-to-day, although of course they do talk, and technology choices made in Firefox can and do effect Thunderbird, just like they effect e.g. Zen Browser or Tor Browser. (Also, someone help a non-native speaker: I think the "effect"s above should be "affect", but for some reason that looked wrong here. Why is that?)
  - throwaway667555 6mo ago
    Companies will often state a subsidiary is wholly owned by the ultimate parent regardless of which tier the subsidiary is at. The Thunderbird subsidiary could be under the Firefox subsidiary and the statement would still be true.
  - antisol 6mo ago
    I agree that it should be "affect". Affect doesn't look wrong to me: and technology choices made in Firefox can and do affect Thunderbird, just like they effect e.g. Zen Browser or Tor Browser. I'm no expert on the rules of english, but I think maybe it would be slightly more gramatically correct to say that "choices made in Firefox can and do have an effect on Thunderbird". I would probably have phrased it like that. Maybe that's why it looks wrong to you? English is a bit of a bastard language IIUC, and so we accept the way you've phrased it too, but in that case it should be "affect". I hope this helps rather than making things more confusing! ;)
Twirrim 6mo ago
Likewise. Long time Thunderbird user since the original 1.0 days, for both work and personal use. There's been a few ups and downs along the way but I've found it generally "just works" and gets out the way, which is exactly what I want in an email client. I've tried almost every single email client I could find on Linux, and several on Windows (including Pegasus mail, if anyone remembers that), but always come back to Thunderbird. I've been a regular donator to the project ever since they spun it out to MZLA Technologies Corporation.
squidbeak 6mo ago
I'm another appreciative long-term user. There are things about it that piss me off (especially the absence of a comfortable reading mode - with a quarter of an ordinary screen given over to ui and message headers) but it's been dependable over decades.
bachmeier 6mo ago
I've been using Thunderbird for decades, I've donated in the past, and am likely to donate again. With that out of the way, the lack of transparency as to what happens to my money kills the incentive to donate. "How will my gift be used?" "Thunderbird is the leading open source email and productivity app that is free for business and personal use. Your gift helps ensure it stays that way, and supports ongoing development." Well that tells me exactly nothing. This might not be as big an issue if they were separate from Mozilla. To be concrete, and focusing only on the development of Firefox, there's now an AI chatbot in the sidebar. I think that's a good addition. However, when the only options are proprietary services, it's hard for me to see the point of Firefox. It would be easier to get out my credit card for Thunderbird if I didn't have those thoughts in the back of my mind. As it stands, my donation might be going to fund the Mozilla CEO's salary.
- cycomanic 6mo ago
  I find that a weird sentiment. Why do people demand to know and control how every one of their donations goes, while nobody questions how corporations use their money. Ironically, the demand for this increased transparency significantly increases compliance cost, which means more and more money is driven away from the actual cause toward the administrative costs. Exactly what people don't want to support.
  - sassymuffinz 6mo ago
    I don't think it's that weird. If they sold it as a product then the understanding is that there is a profit motive and profits mean CEO's get paid. If you're asking for donations and holding your cap out, the implication is that every penny will go toward development. Mozilla should either just make it a product that you have to pay for, or sub to, or keep donations cleanly separated.
  - sidewndr46 6mo ago
    One look at where donations to "keep Wikipedia free!" wind up should explain all of that for you.
  - 1dom 6mo ago
ubermonkey 6mo ago
I'm agog you're still using POP, honestly. ;)
- PopAlongKid 6mo ago
  I too prefer POP. I don't read email on my phone, I alternate between a desktop and notebook computer for that (and most everything else), and simply copy my Thunderbird profile back and forth (using robocopy) when I switch. I have four primary mail identities, and use the Thunderbird unified folders to easily manage it all.
- narag 6mo ago
  lol, kind of expected someone would notice... it's my personal mail and I don't get much. In my experience, it's better for low volume. I just connect, download, delete it from the server and have it in an easily readable format. I keep my archives from the 90's with no issues.
pizza234 6mo ago
I've been using TB for a decade and I too can't find anything better (even if my use case is very simple). However, I find TB's development very misguided - it's evident to me that they give very little priority to stability: - addons support (APIs) is a dumpster fire, and IMO a large addon ecosystem is what makes a client unique - not so long ago, they added an instant messaging client, which has been a waste of dev resources - at some point they overhauled the UI, but the result was a bloated slow mess (on some platforms), even with broken defaults - there are bugs open for at least a decade (I consistently hit one) It gives me the impression that the management prioritizes work that looks good on a screenshot, rather than stability. I think it'd be positive if the Thunderbird org shut down. There are more pragmatic teams who could take over the project (see Betterbird).
moralestapia 6mo ago
>Thunderbird seems to be somehow apart from Mozilla now Source? Thunderbird is owned by Mozilla ... if I donate, my money goes to Mozilla.

by narag 6mo ago

Skywalker13 6mo ago

I use Thunderbird from the beginning when it was still named Firebird (I switched from Outlook Express). I think that it's a good product because it continues to do the job since more than 20 years. Me too I don't understand the negative comments. It's free (MPL license), it's packaged by Debian. All good. I don't care about Mozilla.

Skywalker13 6mo ago
I just check something because my memory as faults... Firebird was the name of Firefox and the mail client was called something like Mozilla mail or something else.
- CamouflagedKiwi 6mo ago
  It was originally Minotaur (when the browser was Phoenix), then they were Firebird and Thunderbird, until the browser renamed to avoid a name clash.
  - Foobar8568 6mo ago
    I really don't remember (+quick check) Firebird for the email client, do you have source for this?
    - prmoustache 6mo ago
      Firebird was the browser's name, after phoenix and before rebranding to firefox.
      - dizhn 6mo ago
        Firebird was actually the database whose name they hijacked when they had access to AOL's legal army. Also K9Mail is now Thunderbird for Android.
        prmoustache 6mo ago
        They didn't really hijacked anything. Firebird made sense coming from phoenix. It wasn't a good choice considering the database existed before but it wasn't really an hijack in the sense that both are significantly different product that trademarks wouldn't have clashed. It was just annoying when doing web searches (similarly to gemini the google AI product vs the protocol).
        dizhn 6mo ago
        It wasn't that simple. I couldn't find Firebird's original position post but this is close enough. https://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article3097.html https://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article3097.html
      - Foobar8568 6mo ago
        So it wasn't used before Thunderbird, that was the point of OP and myself. We were talking about the email client(!). And I was an user of firebird, the database.
        prmoustache 6mo ago
        Yes that is a confirmation.
    - wisidisi 6mo ago
      Predecessor of Firefox was Firebird, and before that it was even called Phoenix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox#Name_changes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox#Name_changes
mixmastamyk 6mo ago
I’ve used it since it was called Netscape Mail. ;-)

Levitating 6mo ago

> Thunderbird seems to be somehow apart from Mozilla now I don't think that's the case. "Thunderbird is part of MZLA Technologies Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation." Thunderbirds sourcecode is literally part of the same mercury codebase as Firefox. Thunderbird does have a very small team, and I think everyone that uses it should considering donating.

Vinnl 6mo ago
Yeah it's all a bit complex (just like the US tax code, I suppose). MZLA (which makes Thunderbird) is a subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. The Mozilla Corporation (which makes Firefox) is also a subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. In practice, this means that the people running Firefox day-to-day aren't the people running Thunderbird day-to-day, although of course they do talk, and technology choices made in Firefox can and do effect Thunderbird, just like they effect e.g. Zen Browser or Tor Browser. (Also, someone help a non-native speaker: I think the "effect"s above should be "affect", but for some reason that looked wrong here. Why is that?)
- throwaway667555 6mo ago
  Companies will often state a subsidiary is wholly owned by the ultimate parent regardless of which tier the subsidiary is at. The Thunderbird subsidiary could be under the Firefox subsidiary and the statement would still be true.
- antisol 6mo ago
  I agree that it should be "affect". Affect doesn't look wrong to me: and technology choices made in Firefox can and do affect Thunderbird, just like they effect e.g. Zen Browser or Tor Browser. I'm no expert on the rules of english, but I think maybe it would be slightly more gramatically correct to say that "choices made in Firefox can and do have an effect on Thunderbird". I would probably have phrased it like that. Maybe that's why it looks wrong to you? English is a bit of a bastard language IIUC, and so we accept the way you've phrased it too, but in that case it should be "affect". I hope this helps rather than making things more confusing! ;)

Twirrim 6mo ago

Likewise. Long time Thunderbird user since the original 1.0 days, for both work and personal use. There's been a few ups and downs along the way but I've found it generally "just works" and gets out the way, which is exactly what I want in an email client. I've tried almost every single email client I could find on Linux, and several on Windows (including Pegasus mail, if anyone remembers that), but always come back to Thunderbird. I've been a regular donator to the project ever since they spun it out to MZLA Technologies Corporation.

squidbeak 6mo ago

I'm another appreciative long-term user. There are things about it that piss me off (especially the absence of a comfortable reading mode - with a quarter of an ordinary screen given over to ui and message headers) but it's been dependable over decades.

bachmeier 6mo ago

I've been using Thunderbird for decades, I've donated in the past, and am likely to donate again. With that out of the way, the lack of transparency as to what happens to my money kills the incentive to donate. "How will my gift be used?" "Thunderbird is the leading open source email and productivity app that is free for business and personal use. Your gift helps ensure it stays that way, and supports ongoing development." Well that tells me exactly nothing. This might not be as big an issue if they were separate from Mozilla. To be concrete, and focusing only on the development of Firefox, there's now an AI chatbot in the sidebar. I think that's a good addition. However, when the only options are proprietary services, it's hard for me to see the point of Firefox. It would be easier to get out my credit card for Thunderbird if I didn't have those thoughts in the back of my mind. As it stands, my donation might be going to fund the Mozilla CEO's salary.

cycomanic 6mo ago
I find that a weird sentiment. Why do people demand to know and control how every one of their donations goes, while nobody questions how corporations use their money. Ironically, the demand for this increased transparency significantly increases compliance cost, which means more and more money is driven away from the actual cause toward the administrative costs. Exactly what people don't want to support.
- sassymuffinz 6mo ago
  I don't think it's that weird. If they sold it as a product then the understanding is that there is a profit motive and profits mean CEO's get paid. If you're asking for donations and holding your cap out, the implication is that every penny will go toward development. Mozilla should either just make it a product that you have to pay for, or sub to, or keep donations cleanly separated.
- sidewndr46 6mo ago
  One look at where donations to "keep Wikipedia free!" wind up should explain all of that for you.
- 1dom 6mo ago

ubermonkey 6mo ago

I'm agog you're still using POP, honestly. ;)

PopAlongKid 6mo ago
I too prefer POP. I don't read email on my phone, I alternate between a desktop and notebook computer for that (and most everything else), and simply copy my Thunderbird profile back and forth (using robocopy) when I switch. I have four primary mail identities, and use the Thunderbird unified folders to easily manage it all.
narag 6mo ago
lol, kind of expected someone would notice... it's my personal mail and I don't get much. In my experience, it's better for low volume. I just connect, download, delete it from the server and have it in an easily readable format. I keep my archives from the 90's with no issues.

pizza234 6mo ago

I've been using TB for a decade and I too can't find anything better (even if my use case is very simple). However, I find TB's development very misguided - it's evident to me that they give very little priority to stability: - addons support (APIs) is a dumpster fire, and IMO a large addon ecosystem is what makes a client unique - not so long ago, they added an instant messaging client, which has been a waste of dev resources - at some point they overhauled the UI, but the result was a bloated slow mess (on some platforms), even with broken defaults - there are bugs open for at least a decade (I consistently hit one) It gives me the impression that the management prioritizes work that looks good on a screenshot, rather than stability. I think it'd be positive if the Thunderbird org shut down. There are more pragmatic teams who could take over the project (see Betterbird).

moralestapia 6mo ago

>Thunderbird seems to be somehow apart from Mozilla now Source? Thunderbird is owned by Mozilla ... if I donate, my money goes to Mozilla.