3 ms·

Presumably these are lightning invoices, which can resolve in milliseconds.

by sanskritical 6mo ago

HWR_14 6mo ago
Is there a limit on how much the lightning network can handle? Those are pretty large transactions.
- ProllyInfamous 6mo ago
  Transaction fees are based on the complexity of the inputs/outputs, not the value transacted. You are literally paying for the minimum amount of data necessary to prove you own the funded sending-address, paying to write those hashes and amounts into the blockchain. The institution handling this offchaing lightning branch can implement fees in whatever structure you agree to transact, including percentage based. Lightning is just an off-chain out-branch, which will eventually be re-integrated onto the main blockchain (based on its original funding/terms). The benefit of this is that single entities can branch off the main blockchain, which is limited in its total blocksize/capacity. The only limits are those by the handling lightning institution. This differs from bitcoin's main public blockchain, which rewards/creates approximately six blocks /hour, each with a limit of just a couple megabytes.
  - HWR_14 6mo ago
    There are multiple competing lightning networks? I don't get how the lighting networks prevent double spending then. It seems like a major issue when dealing with multimillion dollar transactions.
    - derangedHorse 6mo ago
      Lightning is a protocol and there can theoretically be many disjoint networks. The biggest network is usually what's considered to be 'the' lightning network. Double spending, which would require 'settling' a superseded lightning transaction, is prevented by a penalty mechanism that makes it so the malicious party loses all the funds in their 'channel' when caught (which will be, at smallest, the amount the original payment was made for).
      - HWR_14 6mo ago
        I'm still thrown. I don't see how an after the fact penalty can work. Let's say I have 1 BTC. I buy something for 1 BTC on lightning network A. Simultaneously (within nanoseconds) I buy something for 1 BTC on lightning network B. I never plan to use BTC again (or if I do, I will use a different wallet, etc.) Do I just get two purchases? Is there a meta-network clearing house, and if so, why are there many disjoint networks. Or do I need to have moved my BTC into the lightning network A or B before I spend it?
        ProllyInfamous 6mo ago
        Once you've allocated BTC, you cannot doublespend it elsewhere (well, you can try, but verification nodes will reject it so the blockchain will never accept).
        HWR_14 6mo ago
        I get that once I allocate BTC on the main blockchain. I was trying to understand how I allocate BTC via the lightning network(s)
        jenadine 6mo ago
        On the main chain, bitcoin transactions can have "scripts" that describes who and under what condition this money can be spent. You have to lock your bitcoin on the main chain in a script that shares the bitcoin between you, and another lightning network user (typically a hub) The trick is that a lightning transaction happen by signing transactions to the other party that changes the way the bitcoins are split, without broadcasting it to the main chain. You only broadcast to the main chain when you want to unlock the bitcoin. Broadcasting an earlier transaction will result of you losing the found because subsequent transaction contains secrets that allow the other party to take them.
        HWR_14 6mo ago
        So I allocate my one BTC to lightning network A, so I can spend it there. I try to spend it on lightning network B and it rejects the spend because it's allocated to A in the main blockchain, even if I never spent it on A. There exists some mechanism for me to switch my bitcoin to B (by broadcasting on the main chain)... maybe? But then A needs to sign off that I don't have pending transactions?
  - derangedHorse 6mo ago
    > Transaction fees are based on the complexity of the inputs/outputs, not the value transacted Not on the lightning network. Fees are used to incentivize or disincentivize routes across channels. > The institution handling this offchaing lightning branch can implement fees in whatever structure you agree to transact, including percentage based. No institution is needed. Even if one is used as an intermediary, when using lightning non-custodially, the economics of lightning are such that fees are determined by the nodes in the payer's desired route. If it's a custodial transfer from one user to another, no routes are needed.
- tim333 6mo ago
  The record for lightning is $1m recently https://www.tradingview.com/news/financemagnates:db022676a094b:0-largest-ever-1m-lightning-transaction-marks-bitcoin-s-leap-toward-faster-settlements/ https://www.tradingview.com/news/financemagnates:db022676a09... I imagine the seconds to pay won't be true - if they are exchanging emails and inspecting boats it's going to be an hours to days long process.
  - HWR_14 6mo ago
    No way they're boarding boats. They can get an accurate enough cargo weight within seconds visually (maybe minutes, depending on how computerized it is)

Presumably these are lightning invoices, which can resolve in milliseconds.

HWR_14 6mo ago

Is there a limit on how much the lightning network can handle? Those are pretty large transactions.

ProllyInfamous 6mo ago
Transaction fees are based on the complexity of the inputs/outputs, not the value transacted. You are literally paying for the minimum amount of data necessary to prove you own the funded sending-address, paying to write those hashes and amounts into the blockchain. The institution handling this offchaing lightning branch can implement fees in whatever structure you agree to transact, including percentage based. Lightning is just an off-chain out-branch, which will eventually be re-integrated onto the main blockchain (based on its original funding/terms). The benefit of this is that single entities can branch off the main blockchain, which is limited in its total blocksize/capacity. The only limits are those by the handling lightning institution. This differs from bitcoin's main public blockchain, which rewards/creates approximately six blocks /hour, each with a limit of just a couple megabytes.
- HWR_14 6mo ago
  There are multiple competing lightning networks? I don't get how the lighting networks prevent double spending then. It seems like a major issue when dealing with multimillion dollar transactions.
  - derangedHorse 6mo ago
    Lightning is a protocol and there can theoretically be many disjoint networks. The biggest network is usually what's considered to be 'the' lightning network. Double spending, which would require 'settling' a superseded lightning transaction, is prevented by a penalty mechanism that makes it so the malicious party loses all the funds in their 'channel' when caught (which will be, at smallest, the amount the original payment was made for).
    - HWR_14 6mo ago
      I'm still thrown. I don't see how an after the fact penalty can work. Let's say I have 1 BTC. I buy something for 1 BTC on lightning network A. Simultaneously (within nanoseconds) I buy something for 1 BTC on lightning network B. I never plan to use BTC again (or if I do, I will use a different wallet, etc.) Do I just get two purchases? Is there a meta-network clearing house, and if so, why are there many disjoint networks. Or do I need to have moved my BTC into the lightning network A or B before I spend it?
      - ProllyInfamous 6mo ago
        Once you've allocated BTC, you cannot doublespend it elsewhere (well, you can try, but verification nodes will reject it so the blockchain will never accept).
        HWR_14 6mo ago
        I get that once I allocate BTC on the main blockchain. I was trying to understand how I allocate BTC via the lightning network(s)
      - jenadine 6mo ago
        On the main chain, bitcoin transactions can have "scripts" that describes who and under what condition this money can be spent. You have to lock your bitcoin on the main chain in a script that shares the bitcoin between you, and another lightning network user (typically a hub) The trick is that a lightning transaction happen by signing transactions to the other party that changes the way the bitcoins are split, without broadcasting it to the main chain. You only broadcast to the main chain when you want to unlock the bitcoin. Broadcasting an earlier transaction will result of you losing the found because subsequent transaction contains secrets that allow the other party to take them.
        HWR_14 6mo ago
        So I allocate my one BTC to lightning network A, so I can spend it there. I try to spend it on lightning network B and it rejects the spend because it's allocated to A in the main blockchain, even if I never spent it on A. There exists some mechanism for me to switch my bitcoin to B (by broadcasting on the main chain)... maybe? But then A needs to sign off that I don't have pending transactions?
- derangedHorse 6mo ago
  > Transaction fees are based on the complexity of the inputs/outputs, not the value transacted Not on the lightning network. Fees are used to incentivize or disincentivize routes across channels. > The institution handling this offchaing lightning branch can implement fees in whatever structure you agree to transact, including percentage based. No institution is needed. Even if one is used as an intermediary, when using lightning non-custodially, the economics of lightning are such that fees are determined by the nodes in the payer's desired route. If it's a custodial transfer from one user to another, no routes are needed.
tim333 6mo ago
The record for lightning is $1m recently https://www.tradingview.com/news/financemagnates:db022676a094b:0-largest-ever-1m-lightning-transaction-marks-bitcoin-s-leap-toward-faster-settlements/ https://www.tradingview.com/news/financemagnates:db022676a09... I imagine the seconds to pay won't be true - if they are exchanging emails and inspecting boats it's going to be an hours to days long process.
- HWR_14 6mo ago
  No way they're boarding boats. They can get an accurate enough cargo weight within seconds visually (maybe minutes, depending on how computerized it is)