6 ms·

I don't understand why people are so negative about IPv6. I have done essentially zero home networking work and I just ran this successfully. It just works! ``

I don't understand why people are so negative about IPv6. I have done essentially zero home networking work and I just ran this successfully. It just works! ``` > ping6 google.com PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) 2605:59c0:236f:3a08:7883:9d04:c26d:5fa1 --> 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=0 hlim=117 time=22.262 ms 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=1 hlim=117 time=26.124 ms 16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4005:806::200e, icmp_seq=2 hlim=117 time=26.807 ms ^C --- google.com ping6 statistics --- 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 22.262/25.064/26.807/2.001 ms ```

kstrauser 6mo ago
That's literally impossible, to hear some people tell it. "And also, look how hard it'd be to memorize that address", say the people who remember like 2 IPv4 addresses, one of them being 127.0.0.1.
- NekkoDroid 6mo ago
  I remember like 10 different IPv4 addresses, 6 of which are DNS servers where each octet is a single number, 1 is my router, 1 is my home network switch, 1 is my home server and the last one localhost. The main thing all those have in common is they are either something I frequently use (all mentioned local IPs) or just stupid easy to remember (DNS servers), neither of which isn't possible for IPv6. From memory isn't localhost for IPv6 not shorter than for IPv4? The answer is yes, it is ::1 and I was thinking of the Multicast and Link-local address prefixes which are ff00:: and fe80:: respectively.
  - boredatoms 6mo ago
    Telling people to use ULA subnet fddd:: with dhcpv6 is my way. fddd::7 is easier to type than 10.0.0.7
    - opan 6mo ago
      "ten oh oh 7" (how I'd say it or remember it) still seems simpler than "eff dee dee dee colon colon 7". While with ipv4 the dots can be assumed for pauses, v6 doesn't put colons as often, also I could easily see myself forgetting the amount of "d"s. I don't wanna seem too anti-v6, though, I am in favor of everyone adopting the more modern thing. edit: Well, you said easier to type. I guess I probably agree with that.
      - wpm 6mo ago
        There is also the fact that an IPv6 IP has a maximum and minimum number of characters and separators, but not a set one, so the length of any given address is variable. Instead of being able to run a groove in my head mentally, and read with any sort of rhythm, I have to read them like binary bytes. Every address feels like a foreign phone number where your normal rhythm doesn't fit, but it never gets better. Perhaps, IMO, the greatest and only sin of IPv6. That and using fucking colons.
        Dagger2 6mo ago
        Dots weren't an option, because then the syntax would overlap with DNS hostnames. "2001.db8.c.d.e.f.g.ca" is a valid host under the .ca TLD.
    - cwillu 6mo ago
      one of those addresses requires two hands and hitting the shift key, the other is easily done one-handed.
      - Dagger2 6mo ago
        You're looking for one of these: https://ipv6buddy.com/ https://ipv6buddy.com/
- jen729w 6mo ago
  Tailscale, perhaps ironically in this context, has shown me the value of not caring about an IP address. I used to. When I had a home network I'd carefully assign `10.52.1.x` where `x` was the periodic number corresponding to the machine name! (I write from `lutetium`.) Now, with Tailscale's magic DNS – `lutetium` being all I need – why on Earth would I give a crap about an IP address? I've gone from being obsessed to truly not caring at all. So, give me IPv6. Auto-assign everything! All I want is a name.
  - justsomehnguy 6mo ago
    It's akin to remembering the phone numbers. Even 20 years ago I had like 10-20 of most important ones memorized despite some of them not used often ie once in a years. Nowadays I have 'me myself' in the Contacts because I can't remember it despite using it for 5+ years nor I care.
  - kstrauser 6mo ago
    Hah, I kinda love your naming and numbering convention! But yeah. On my own LAN, everything is DHCP for IPv4 and SLAAC for v6. Everything uses mDNS and I connect to everything by name, not address. I can only remember the static IP of one of the servers; the rest are purely names.
- itopaloglu83 6mo ago
  When people are managing 20 devices on a network, they access everything by IP address directly and struggle with constant DNS issues. Introducing a more complex system without easing any of the cognitive load and making fun of it is just cruel at this moment. Users need a simpler way to connect to their devices, and what tailscale did with magic dns shows that users don’t even care about IPv4 they just want to connect to their devices with something simple they can remember.
  - gertrunde 6mo ago
    Weirdly this might be a CPE problem, e.g. crappy ISP routers. Put in something more interesting, e.g. OpenWRT, or there are proprietary options too, that provides simple & reliable local LAN DNS, then the problem just goes away.
  - kstrauser 6mo ago
    I have 68 devices on the line at this moment. I just checked. I remember exactly one of their IPs and that’s just one that stuck in my head. I never connect to it by address. I agree with the sibling comment: crummy CPE is crummy CPE. This is a solvable problem, but people end up with junky routers and it causes them anguish.
magicalhippo 6mo ago
> I don't understand why people are so negative about IPv6. [...] It just works! Networking is a lot more than being able to ping a single host. As a concrete counter-example, IPv6 routinely broke for me when I was using pfSense as a router. Why? Because pfSense, with no way of disabling this behavior, published its public IP as the DNS server for internal clients. So each time I got a new prefix from my ISP, which happens about once a week or more often, machines stopped being able to perform DNS lookups for hours or until I rebooted them. And, if I had bothered configuring IPv6 firewall rules, those would have had to be reconfigured manually with the new prefix. I understand this is mostly fixed in pfSense recently, but this was the case for many, many years. Another counter-example is that Android only supports SLAAC, and SLAAC only supports providing a few key infrastructure details like router and DNS. If you want to tell the Android client something else, like NTP server, you're outta luck. Also, if Android successfully gets an IPv6 address via SLAAC, it requires the DNS server IP to also be an IPv6 address. So your internal DNS server must then also serve on IPv6. If that wasn't the case, it would just silently use Google's own DNS servers, breaking any local configuration you had. Another point is that a lot of us tried using IPv6 decades ago, and so we still have scars from that time. IPv6 today is a lot better, but I still have a lot of IPv6 frustration associated with it from 15-20 years ago.
- happymellon 6mo ago
  > As a concrete counter-example, IPv6 routinely broke for me when I was using pfSense as a router. Why? Because pfSense, does really bad things. I mean, I have a router that is trash with IP4. Therefore IP4 is trash!
  - magicalhippo 6mo ago
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say "Because pfSense, does really bad things." How pfSense works is fairly reasonable if every IPv6 deployment had been as the original designers intended, ie you have a static prefix. It's just that the way IPv6 ended up getting deployed in practice was often not aligned with that original vision. And that has been a large source of IPv6 frustration.

kstrauser 6mo ago

That's literally impossible, to hear some people tell it. "And also, look how hard it'd be to memorize that address", say the people who remember like 2 IPv4 addresses, one of them being 127.0.0.1.

NekkoDroid 6mo ago
I remember like 10 different IPv4 addresses, 6 of which are DNS servers where each octet is a single number, 1 is my router, 1 is my home network switch, 1 is my home server and the last one localhost. The main thing all those have in common is they are either something I frequently use (all mentioned local IPs) or just stupid easy to remember (DNS servers), neither of which isn't possible for IPv6. From memory isn't localhost for IPv6 not shorter than for IPv4? The answer is yes, it is ::1 and I was thinking of the Multicast and Link-local address prefixes which are ff00:: and fe80:: respectively.
- boredatoms 6mo ago
  Telling people to use ULA subnet fddd:: with dhcpv6 is my way. fddd::7 is easier to type than 10.0.0.7
  - opan 6mo ago
    "ten oh oh 7" (how I'd say it or remember it) still seems simpler than "eff dee dee dee colon colon 7". While with ipv4 the dots can be assumed for pauses, v6 doesn't put colons as often, also I could easily see myself forgetting the amount of "d"s. I don't wanna seem too anti-v6, though, I am in favor of everyone adopting the more modern thing. edit: Well, you said easier to type. I guess I probably agree with that.
    - wpm 6mo ago
      There is also the fact that an IPv6 IP has a maximum and minimum number of characters and separators, but not a set one, so the length of any given address is variable. Instead of being able to run a groove in my head mentally, and read with any sort of rhythm, I have to read them like binary bytes. Every address feels like a foreign phone number where your normal rhythm doesn't fit, but it never gets better. Perhaps, IMO, the greatest and only sin of IPv6. That and using fucking colons.
      - Dagger2 6mo ago
        Dots weren't an option, because then the syntax would overlap with DNS hostnames. "2001.db8.c.d.e.f.g.ca" is a valid host under the .ca TLD.
  - cwillu 6mo ago
    one of those addresses requires two hands and hitting the shift key, the other is easily done one-handed.
    - Dagger2 6mo ago
      You're looking for one of these: https://ipv6buddy.com/ https://ipv6buddy.com/
jen729w 6mo ago
Tailscale, perhaps ironically in this context, has shown me the value of not caring about an IP address. I used to. When I had a home network I'd carefully assign `10.52.1.x` where `x` was the periodic number corresponding to the machine name! (I write from `lutetium`.) Now, with Tailscale's magic DNS – `lutetium` being all I need – why on Earth would I give a crap about an IP address? I've gone from being obsessed to truly not caring at all. So, give me IPv6. Auto-assign everything! All I want is a name.
- justsomehnguy 6mo ago
  It's akin to remembering the phone numbers. Even 20 years ago I had like 10-20 of most important ones memorized despite some of them not used often ie once in a years. Nowadays I have 'me myself' in the Contacts because I can't remember it despite using it for 5+ years nor I care.
- kstrauser 6mo ago
  Hah, I kinda love your naming and numbering convention! But yeah. On my own LAN, everything is DHCP for IPv4 and SLAAC for v6. Everything uses mDNS and I connect to everything by name, not address. I can only remember the static IP of one of the servers; the rest are purely names.
itopaloglu83 6mo ago
When people are managing 20 devices on a network, they access everything by IP address directly and struggle with constant DNS issues. Introducing a more complex system without easing any of the cognitive load and making fun of it is just cruel at this moment. Users need a simpler way to connect to their devices, and what tailscale did with magic dns shows that users don’t even care about IPv4 they just want to connect to their devices with something simple they can remember.
- gertrunde 6mo ago
  Weirdly this might be a CPE problem, e.g. crappy ISP routers. Put in something more interesting, e.g. OpenWRT, or there are proprietary options too, that provides simple & reliable local LAN DNS, then the problem just goes away.
- kstrauser 6mo ago
  I have 68 devices on the line at this moment. I just checked. I remember exactly one of their IPs and that’s just one that stuck in my head. I never connect to it by address. I agree with the sibling comment: crummy CPE is crummy CPE. This is a solvable problem, but people end up with junky routers and it causes them anguish.

magicalhippo 6mo ago

> I don't understand why people are so negative about IPv6. [...] It just works! Networking is a lot more than being able to ping a single host. As a concrete counter-example, IPv6 routinely broke for me when I was using pfSense as a router. Why? Because pfSense, with no way of disabling this behavior, published its public IP as the DNS server for internal clients. So each time I got a new prefix from my ISP, which happens about once a week or more often, machines stopped being able to perform DNS lookups for hours or until I rebooted them. And, if I had bothered configuring IPv6 firewall rules, those would have had to be reconfigured manually with the new prefix. I understand this is mostly fixed in pfSense recently, but this was the case for many, many years. Another counter-example is that Android only supports SLAAC, and SLAAC only supports providing a few key infrastructure details like router and DNS. If you want to tell the Android client something else, like NTP server, you're outta luck. Also, if Android successfully gets an IPv6 address via SLAAC, it requires the DNS server IP to also be an IPv6 address. So your internal DNS server must then also serve on IPv6. If that wasn't the case, it would just silently use Google's own DNS servers, breaking any local configuration you had. Another point is that a lot of us tried using IPv6 decades ago, and so we still have scars from that time. IPv6 today is a lot better, but I still have a lot of IPv6 frustration associated with it from 15-20 years ago.

happymellon 6mo ago
> As a concrete counter-example, IPv6 routinely broke for me when I was using pfSense as a router. Why? Because pfSense, does really bad things. I mean, I have a router that is trash with IP4. Therefore IP4 is trash!
- magicalhippo 6mo ago
  Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say "Because pfSense, does really bad things." How pfSense works is fairly reasonable if every IPv6 deployment had been as the original designers intended, ie you have a static prefix. It's just that the way IPv6 ended up getting deployed in practice was often not aligned with that original vision. And that has been a large source of IPv6 frustration.