7 ms·

Sounds about right - pretty wild. What else surprised me was the strobe light / camera systems at the chokes points to cities / neighborhoods. Overall, I don't

Sounds about right - pretty wild. What else surprised me was the strobe light / camera systems at the chokes points to cities / neighborhoods. Overall, I don't think China seemed that bad - not like military with AKs everywhere, but this stuff was quite interesting to see first hand.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
The bizarre thing is that its a much freerer society than even the states in some ways. The police don't really bother you unless the situation becomes "visible," lots of sketchy things happen out in the open. You don't have to wear a helmet when cycling, etc...
- nickpinkston 14y ago
  Yea, I felt the same way - it's almost libertarian in some ways. I felt far less paranoid around their police / security people because it seemed like their default position wasn't: hassle. Though to be honest, the police in the states aren't really hard to beat - what culture of BS that is...
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    I've heard of some "situations" involving raves and outdoor parties where weed was involved, but in each case the foreigners get a free pass while the Chinese get to spend all night in a police station getting drug tests. Anyways, we will never be Chinese and won't see the real China.
    - olalonde 14y ago
      I actually heard that regular policemen in China couldn't recognize the smell of marijuana.
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        These aren't regular police men, they are the police guys who are in plain clothes and drive black Audis. Quite a bit different from the regular traffic cop.
- olalonde 14y ago
  You can drink beers in the street, nightclubs and bars don't have a closing time, policemen are not armed, there is no law about where you can or cannot smoke, it's ridiculously easy to get a visa and stay in China as long as you want. You will never ever get a fine in China for a civil offense (not wearing a seatbelt, spitting on the floor, peeing in public, crossing the street on a red light, etc.). At worse, you are going to get a friendly warning. Traffic policemen are not allowed to chase speeding cars. They will rely on license plates and CCTV cameras instead. China is surprisingly more free than many western countries as long as you don't step into political territory. Being a foreigner also helps a lot. Some people might argue that those freedoms seem anodin compared to freedom of speech or political freedom but in many ways, those things have a bigger impact on your everyday life than the latter freedoms. If you're libertarian leaning like me, you'll probably like China.
  - ern 14y ago
    What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area? Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal? What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable - could you complain without fear? I am not being snarky, I really am curious about how bright the line is between the political forbidden territory and uncontroversial.
    - olalonde 14y ago
      > What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area? Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal? In general, the central government tries to maintain a good popular opinion so complaining does work in some ways. It's also fairly straightforward to join the party if you are really into politics. I believe you are relatively safe from reprisal as long as you complain about a specific policy, not the actual party. When people are unhappy about something, the party's modus operandi is to blame local government or corruption and fix whatever is making them unhappy. The nice thing about the party is that it is highly decentralized making it easier to back off without losing face or perceived authority. In the case of Internet censorship, it doesn't affect 99.9% of Chinese so there isn't much people complaining about it. Most Chinese don't have a clue what Google Maps or Gmail is. The prevalent websites here are Baidu for search, Baidu maps for maps and Yahoo for email. Would the average Joe in the US complain about Baidu or Youku being blocked by the government? > What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable - could you complain without fear? I'm not sure who sets the curriculum and whether you could successfully get it changed. I believe it would be easier in that case to send your kids to a private school. Personally, I feel China is freer than the US or Canada in ways that have a more noticeable impact on my life. Then again, I would probably be more concerned about freedom of speech and political freedom if I couldn't leave China as easily I can right now.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago

The bizarre thing is that its a much freerer society than even the states in some ways. The police don't really bother you unless the situation becomes "visible," lots of sketchy things happen out in the open. You don't have to wear a helmet when cycling, etc...

nickpinkston 14y ago
Yea, I felt the same way - it's almost libertarian in some ways. I felt far less paranoid around their police / security people because it seemed like their default position wasn't: hassle. Though to be honest, the police in the states aren't really hard to beat - what culture of BS that is...
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  I've heard of some "situations" involving raves and outdoor parties where weed was involved, but in each case the foreigners get a free pass while the Chinese get to spend all night in a police station getting drug tests. Anyways, we will never be Chinese and won't see the real China.
  - olalonde 14y ago
    I actually heard that regular policemen in China couldn't recognize the smell of marijuana.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      These aren't regular police men, they are the police guys who are in plain clothes and drive black Audis. Quite a bit different from the regular traffic cop.
olalonde 14y ago
You can drink beers in the street, nightclubs and bars don't have a closing time, policemen are not armed, there is no law about where you can or cannot smoke, it's ridiculously easy to get a visa and stay in China as long as you want. You will never ever get a fine in China for a civil offense (not wearing a seatbelt, spitting on the floor, peeing in public, crossing the street on a red light, etc.). At worse, you are going to get a friendly warning. Traffic policemen are not allowed to chase speeding cars. They will rely on license plates and CCTV cameras instead. China is surprisingly more free than many western countries as long as you don't step into political territory. Being a foreigner also helps a lot. Some people might argue that those freedoms seem anodin compared to freedom of speech or political freedom but in many ways, those things have a bigger impact on your everyday life than the latter freedoms. If you're libertarian leaning like me, you'll probably like China.
- ern 14y ago
  What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area? Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal? What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable - could you complain without fear? I am not being snarky, I really am curious about how bright the line is between the political forbidden territory and uncontroversial.
  - olalonde 14y ago
    > What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area? Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal? In general, the central government tries to maintain a good popular opinion so complaining does work in some ways. It's also fairly straightforward to join the party if you are really into politics. I believe you are relatively safe from reprisal as long as you complain about a specific policy, not the actual party. When people are unhappy about something, the party's modus operandi is to blame local government or corruption and fix whatever is making them unhappy. The nice thing about the party is that it is highly decentralized making it easier to back off without losing face or perceived authority. In the case of Internet censorship, it doesn't affect 99.9% of Chinese so there isn't much people complaining about it. Most Chinese don't have a clue what Google Maps or Gmail is. The prevalent websites here are Baidu for search, Baidu maps for maps and Yahoo for email. Would the average Joe in the US complain about Baidu or Youku being blocked by the government? > What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable - could you complain without fear? I'm not sure who sets the curriculum and whether you could successfully get it changed. I believe it would be easier in that case to send your kids to a private school. Personally, I feel China is freer than the US or Canada in ways that have a more noticeable impact on my life. Then again, I would probably be more concerned about freedom of speech and political freedom if I couldn't leave China as easily I can right now.