24 ms·

Possibly the easiest way to bring any metropolitan area or region into the Stone Age for unknowable amounts of time is simply to destroy large, bespoke transmis

Possibly the easiest way to bring any metropolitan area or region into the Stone Age for unknowable amounts of time is simply to destroy large, bespoke transmission (rather than distribution) transformers. Crazy people shooting out the cooling systems have done this several times. Meaningful grid security means these items need rapid, standardized, domestic production capacity and cold spares distributed offsite and ready to be deployed should anything happen to ones in use. These are critical items that must not be neglected to reactive actions disaster recovery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_County_substation_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_County_substation_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_grid_security_in_the_United_States#Washington_and_Oregon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_grid_security_in_th...

standeven 7mo ago
Yet another good reason for at-home solar and storage.
- SoftTalker 7mo ago
  Does very little to offset things like no power for hospitals, refrigerated food distribution, manufacturing of almost anything.
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    > no power for hospitals Which have days worth of backup generator power > refrigerated food distribution Do you think refrigerated trucks trail big long extension leads to a socket somewhere?
    - Nasrudith 7mo ago
      Way stations still need power to accept and refrigerate shipments. Distribution isn't just on trucks - although they could act as a small stopgap that also prevents them from making deliveries while being used as storage.
    - SoftTalker 7mo ago
      Refrigerated trucks pick up from refrigerated distribtion centers/warehouses.
      - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        Have a wee guess at what the big boxy things beside the distribution centres with "AGGREKO" written on the side in big orange letters, a big exhaust pipe sticking out the top, and seriously massive electrical connections at one end are.
        defrost 7mo ago
        There's a lot of bizarre sniping comments here coming from users who seemingly have _zero_ experience living outside of high uptime largish municipal grids.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        It's incredible, isn't it? I get similar when I point out that while it's nice that they believe in the whole gas stoves vs. induction hobs thing (a gas stove fills the air with toxic pollution and an induction hob doesn't, IF you seal the room with the gas stove up absolutely airtight and burn fried food on it compared to using the induction stove to slightly warm a pan of water in a well-ventilated room), a gas stove solves a problem I have in a way that an induction stove doesn't. "Oh but we never get power cuts here!" Yeah. Try living in a part of the world where 140mph winds for four weeks just just Normal January Weather. "But if I got power cuts for more than a few hours I'd complain to the provider!" Yeah. That sure is going to help rebuild 30 miles of blown-over 275kV power line that runs through some of the most inaccessible country even if it's not storm-force winds that prevent access by boat and fallen trees that prevent access by land. Complain all you like, but doing beats talking.
        SoftTalker 7mo ago
        The context of this subthread is the intentional destruction of "large, bespoke transmission transformers" so the on-site backup generators will hold you over for a few days, maybe a week or so until they run out of fuel. Meanwhile the lead time on replacing those transformers is years, and that doesn't account for the collapse "into the Stone Age" that is unfolding in the meantime.
  - XorNot 7mo ago
    Also the sewer system backs up after about a week because the pumping and lift stations need power to operate. The water system shuts down because the tanks aren't reserve supply they're pressure support. And solar plus storage will keep you running for maybe a week if you're conservative and mostly don't use anything...which doesn't help you if it's months till replacement.
    - PunchyHamster 7mo ago
      solar + storage + water sheath fireplace can run pretty much till you run out of wood. But yes, unless you spend serious money (own sewer, water from underground etc), it's basically solution for "the power pole is down", not any grid wide problems.
      - XorNot 7mo ago
        I mean "run out of wood" is the problem though. There aren't that many trees, certainly not enough for everyone in a region to start doing it. You'd be better off with an air sourced hear pump for hot water anyway - the one in my house uses less power then my dehumidifier.
      - bob1029 7mo ago
        > unless you spend serious money (own sewer, water from underground etc) It is often the case (at least where I live) that having a septic system and well is far more economical than obtaining a property with access to city utilities.
        GnarfGnarf 7mo ago
        Perhaps, but municipal water runs by gravity whereas your well pump doesn’t operate during a power failure.
        defrost 7mo ago
        Our bore pumps are all solar powered inline immersion pumps fitted to boreholes under older still standing windmills. They're off grid, and can be swapped out if the PV panels or immersion pumps fail. Ideally you should be pumping into tanks in any case, for the buffer, and those tanks can be placed on a hill to gravity feed .. or pump with a motor. Here's a typical setup, sans old windmill: https://youtu.be/iZAMm_S3GNQ?t=383 https://youtu.be/iZAMm_S3GNQ?t=383 (same rough area (W.Australian wheatbelt) not our land)
amluto 7mo ago
It might be easier for DC transmission components to be standardized. Sure, anything with complex controls has a lot more opportunity to fail to interoperate, but DC gear can often be configured for different voltage ratios and can much more directly control how much current flows where. Maybe the grid needs a multi-source agreement for equipment like the network industry has for optics.
stevenwoo 7mo ago
I live near Palo Alto and a transformer blew at the closest PG&E substation and it took six days to ship in a replacement and they cut electricity to the whole area for that time, I want to say last year or the year prior. So it’s not like they had to wait years as described in the article for new builds but I wonder where they got it from and how many do they have.

standeven 7mo ago

Yet another good reason for at-home solar and storage.

SoftTalker 7mo ago
Does very little to offset things like no power for hospitals, refrigerated food distribution, manufacturing of almost anything.
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  > no power for hospitals Which have days worth of backup generator power > refrigerated food distribution Do you think refrigerated trucks trail big long extension leads to a socket somewhere?
  - Nasrudith 7mo ago
    Way stations still need power to accept and refrigerate shipments. Distribution isn't just on trucks - although they could act as a small stopgap that also prevents them from making deliveries while being used as storage.
  - SoftTalker 7mo ago
    Refrigerated trucks pick up from refrigerated distribtion centers/warehouses.
    - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
      Have a wee guess at what the big boxy things beside the distribution centres with "AGGREKO" written on the side in big orange letters, a big exhaust pipe sticking out the top, and seriously massive electrical connections at one end are.
      - defrost 7mo ago
        There's a lot of bizarre sniping comments here coming from users who seemingly have _zero_ experience living outside of high uptime largish municipal grids.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        It's incredible, isn't it? I get similar when I point out that while it's nice that they believe in the whole gas stoves vs. induction hobs thing (a gas stove fills the air with toxic pollution and an induction hob doesn't, IF you seal the room with the gas stove up absolutely airtight and burn fried food on it compared to using the induction stove to slightly warm a pan of water in a well-ventilated room), a gas stove solves a problem I have in a way that an induction stove doesn't. "Oh but we never get power cuts here!" Yeah. Try living in a part of the world where 140mph winds for four weeks just just Normal January Weather. "But if I got power cuts for more than a few hours I'd complain to the provider!" Yeah. That sure is going to help rebuild 30 miles of blown-over 275kV power line that runs through some of the most inaccessible country even if it's not storm-force winds that prevent access by boat and fallen trees that prevent access by land. Complain all you like, but doing beats talking.
      - SoftTalker 7mo ago
        The context of this subthread is the intentional destruction of "large, bespoke transmission transformers" so the on-site backup generators will hold you over for a few days, maybe a week or so until they run out of fuel. Meanwhile the lead time on replacing those transformers is years, and that doesn't account for the collapse "into the Stone Age" that is unfolding in the meantime.
- XorNot 7mo ago
  Also the sewer system backs up after about a week because the pumping and lift stations need power to operate. The water system shuts down because the tanks aren't reserve supply they're pressure support. And solar plus storage will keep you running for maybe a week if you're conservative and mostly don't use anything...which doesn't help you if it's months till replacement.
  - PunchyHamster 7mo ago
    solar + storage + water sheath fireplace can run pretty much till you run out of wood. But yes, unless you spend serious money (own sewer, water from underground etc), it's basically solution for "the power pole is down", not any grid wide problems.
    - XorNot 7mo ago
      I mean "run out of wood" is the problem though. There aren't that many trees, certainly not enough for everyone in a region to start doing it. You'd be better off with an air sourced hear pump for hot water anyway - the one in my house uses less power then my dehumidifier.
    - bob1029 7mo ago
      > unless you spend serious money (own sewer, water from underground etc) It is often the case (at least where I live) that having a septic system and well is far more economical than obtaining a property with access to city utilities.
      - GnarfGnarf 7mo ago
        Perhaps, but municipal water runs by gravity whereas your well pump doesn’t operate during a power failure.
        defrost 7mo ago
        Our bore pumps are all solar powered inline immersion pumps fitted to boreholes under older still standing windmills. They're off grid, and can be swapped out if the PV panels or immersion pumps fail. Ideally you should be pumping into tanks in any case, for the buffer, and those tanks can be placed on a hill to gravity feed .. or pump with a motor. Here's a typical setup, sans old windmill: https://youtu.be/iZAMm_S3GNQ?t=383 https://youtu.be/iZAMm_S3GNQ?t=383 (same rough area (W.Australian wheatbelt) not our land)

amluto 7mo ago

It might be easier for DC transmission components to be standardized. Sure, anything with complex controls has a lot more opportunity to fail to interoperate, but DC gear can often be configured for different voltage ratios and can much more directly control how much current flows where. Maybe the grid needs a multi-source agreement for equipment like the network industry has for optics.

stevenwoo 7mo ago

I live near Palo Alto and a transformer blew at the closest PG&E substation and it took six days to ship in a replacement and they cut electricity to the whole area for that time, I want to say last year or the year prior. So it’s not like they had to wait years as described in the article for new builds but I wonder where they got it from and how many do they have.