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How to Detect a Toxic Customer (2010)

162 points by craigkerstiens 14y ago

swombat 14y ago
I presume this came up because it was auto-tweeted from swombat.com (this got retweeted today: http://swombat.com/2010/12/9/how-to-detect-a-toxic-customer http://swombat.com/2010/12/9/how-to-detect-a-toxic-customer ). If so, it's worth pointing to Joel Spolsky's response to this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987223 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987223 Definitely worth a read alongside this article.
- danielweber 14y ago
  It's not true that large companies will form the bulk of your revenue. It all depends on what you are doing. If you are making something that every company in the world needs one of, than you will sell a lot more to the 501 through 5000th biggest companies in the country than to the top 500. (You might be able to charge those big companies a 50% or even 100% premium on various add-ons, but it won't come close to matching the other revenue.)
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - jlarocco 14y ago
    But that's not how software works most of the time. With most software licensing schemes large companies are, for lack of a better phrase, gold mines. They have more money, more users, more computers, more servers, require more support, and require higher up time. All of which you can charge them for if you license your software appropriately. Not to mention it's usually easier to jump through hoops for one or two huge customers than it is for a hundred small customers.
- larrys 14y ago
  Thanks for posting that. This statement by spolsky, from my many years experience, is correct and needs to be emphasized: "Summary: while it's fine to turn away truly toxic customers, and you are welcome to decide that you'd rather sell to the starving startup founders on Y-combinator who would rather spend 2 hours scouring your website than deal with a salesperson, the corporate customers turn out to be remarkably price-insensitive, once they make a purchase they will keep paying you maintenance for years long after the product is not even in use, and they're just as likely to leave you alone as the small guys, but they do have "multiple stakeholders" and if you want to sell to them you need a process that matches their reality." The problem with some of the advice given on HN is that it is right and wrong depending on the circumstances. Many of the people reading that advice don't have years and years of real world experience and may take that advice out of context to their detriment. (Note I say "many" which doesn't mean "most" or "all").
  - npsimons 14y ago
    the corporate customers turn out to be remarkably price-insensitive, I haven't read all of Spolsky's response yet, but I find this comment interesting in light of the fact that the original article specifically calls out customers who ask for a discount with no justification. Okay, I can see that some places need to check all 80 boxes on their IT purchase approval sheet (I work for one of them), but if they are asking for that, AND being impatient, AND being rude, AND asking for a discount? You don't have be an accountant to see that you will be losing money on that sale. Circumstances indeed will inform choices better than rote rules, but that cuts both ways; if you suddenly jack your prices, many customers will assume you're trying to bilk them and go somewhere else.
    - plorkyeran 14y ago
      In a lot of cases the person making the purchase won't actually care about the price, but will want to appear to care; they'd rather get 25% off $10k than 0% off $5k.
    - rasmuswissmann 14y ago
      Spolsky's argument is that the sale will typically go through without a discount and thus it is not a real problem. "Big companies often have purchasing departments actually do the purchase. They are trained to expect discounts and the people in the purchasing department know a lot more about asking for discounts than they know about software, because that is their specialized role in the organization. If you politely tell them that you have one price for everyone, they'll still purchase, because the purchasing department ususally doesn't have the power to stop the purchase."
- jusben1369 14y ago
  Thanks for posting. Joel does outline the dynamics of an enterprise or larger sales prospect or customer. But he's also highlighting the dynamics of a toxic prospect so it's not that far from the original author's point. If you're dealing directly with procurement, if you're filling out 80 questions and returning via email, if it's a 10 person team drawing it up and giving it to Junior to go chase down...............you're not going to win the business and it's going to suck out time and worse, you may get emotionally attached because it is a larger opportunity so the team will get deflated. This author is correct either way in pushing back on these requests. If your offering is truly of interest to them they will engage in the manner you want. (which is what happened here when they kicked the original guy to the curb and someone more reasonable took over)
- scott_s 14y ago
  And please also read the counter-counter-points in that thread, in particular, one by the original author: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1988330 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1988330 And http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1990229 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1990229
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    There are some great comments fom the last time this was on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146
radley 14y ago
We got one yesterday. Had a list of changes he expected us to make for our app. Most were really redundant and outdated ideas. I wrote responses to each portion of his email: yes, no, maybe... I got to the last paragraph: if we made all of the changes he'd be happy to bump up his rating of our app to 3 or 4 stars. At that point I deleted everything I wrote and instead politely brushed him off and offered a refund.
- Firehed 14y ago
  This is why it's best to avoid line-by-line negotiations. Wait until everything is on the table, see what the offer is, and go from there. If you aren't interested in the end result, you can save yourself a lot of time. If you are, it allows you to figure out the things you care most and least about, and apply flexibility accordingly.
- sarah2079 14y ago
  I get this all the time. My strategy is to respond honestly about whether any of the changes they are suggesting are coming and why I have decided not to add them if they are not, and when it comes to the rating bribery just ignore the fact that they mentioned it. Also popular: "I will buy your in app purchase if you add/change X" (So tempting! A whole 99 cents you say?). Interestingly with this treatment I have not noticed these customers being any more trouble than usual as a group. They usually seem very happy to get an honest response from a real person. Even though behavior like this irks me, I think it is mainly a symptom of the fact that you often have to try so hard to be heard by customer support these days.
danielweber 14y ago
It looks like internal politics at the prospect were at play here. The guy didn't want to be doing this and decided to take his bad attitude out on the vendor he was assigned to deal with.
- wtracy 14y ago
  Now that you say that, that brings up the possibility that the guy was actually hoping to sabotage the purchase.
bryanr 14y ago
The point about asking questions you can get from the website definitely rings true. We had a customer ask us about 15 questions, the answers to which were all on the website on our features page. He then asked for us to walk him through the installation of our app and a demo. After 30 minutes, we had to cut him off. We'll definitely be on the look out for these types of customers going forward - and the cost definitely outweighs any sales we would get from these toxic customers.
Negitivefrags 14y ago
I don't see why asking for a discount is so toxic. We ask for a discount on every transaction with a 3rd party our business makes and more often than not we get one. It seems like most business to business transactions start with the "dummy price" out the gate.
- PotatoEngineer 14y ago
  That's why the article talks about looking for "2 or 3" warning signs rather than just one. Just about any customer can show one of those warning signs and be a perfectly acceptable customer, but when they have several, they're almost certainly toxic.
- dotBen 14y ago
  > We ask for a discount on every transaction with a 3rd party our business makes I'm curious to learn why you do that? On "contact a sales person" type sales I can understand but you use the term 'transaction' which implies you are doing this on self-service purchases. Most self-service businesses are setup to streamline (ie avoid) human-interactions which would also suggest they are honestly pricing their goods/services. By contacting them for a discount you're already increasing their CAC before you then ask for a discount too. If you have sticker-shock on the price because it's not offering a return value to you or you cannot afford it then you're probably not a target customer. That's why I don't go into the Ferrari dealership and ask for 10% off.
  - aes256 14y ago
    > Most self-service businesses are setup to streamline (ie avoid) human-interactions which would also suggest they are honestly pricing their goods/services. This doesn't follow. It shows they are concerned with reducing their costs, not that they will pass those cost savings onto the customer. Don't ask, don't get. If you are going to be a solid, profitable customer for a business, they have a clear incentive to get you on board by sweetening the deal.
    - dotBen 14y ago
jasonkester 14y ago
This kicked off a nice long discussion last time it showed up here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146 Well worth a read just for Joel Spolsky's comment at the top of the thread.
tatsuke95 14y ago
Anyone who has worked selling...anything, can understand where you're coming from. There are some real d-bags out there, and some will end up as potential customers. But as a guy who has been on the other end of these calls, far too often, I can sympathize with wanting some directness. I can't tell you how many times I write an inquiry to a company with some basic questions, and next thing you know I'm bombarded by requests to get me on a sales call. I don't have time; phone calls are inconvenient, emails are not. I've done my research, please answer my questions so I can decide whether to buy your product or not. That's my approach now. I try to be as cordial as possible, but I ask direct questions, usually via email. If you can't answer them, I can't buy what you're selling.
- BryanB55 14y ago
  I've experienced this both ways. Usually when I'm looking for business products or services they are more likely to want to do an annoying "sales call" but I've also experienced this as a business owner. We try to offer a very simple service where customers can sign up online and find all of the information they need on our website. However we still get customers that will literally email us and ask us to call them (as if they can't call our toll-free number) so that they can literally ask the most basic questions. The worst is when they ask us to "send them a proposal" or "when you can have a conference call with us?". We work with clients in the real estate industry, real estate offices, builders, etc... I think certain industries are accustomed to working certain ways or just follow the traditional "corporate attitude" of meetings and conference calls. If you really want a low-touch, low pain customer base I think the industry you choose is also very important.
otakucode 14y ago
Never say no. EVER. I mean it. Not one single time, not under any circumstances ever. Make them say no. The way you do this is by determining just how much you would have to be paid in order to deal with the customer. It doesn't matter if it's a completely unreasonable number. Name it. Don't just presume they will refuse and turn them away. Tell them that your product which would normally cost $1k is going to cost them $50k or $100k. What have you got to lose? Worst case scenario they will pay you a giant amount of money, and you'll have a bit of a headache, but one that you have already determined you are willing to take on for the price you named. This applies to customers, potential employers, and basically everything in life. There is ALWAYS a price. So take the gamble. Let them decide if it's worth it from their own perspective... maybe you'll get lucky!
- BryanB55 14y ago
  It's funny we've thought about doing this in a startup I run in the real estate industry where most of our customers are realtors. Unfortunately it's not always easy to arbitrarily raise your prices for the difficult customers because they complain even more and ask "where does it say that there will be a charge or fee for this on your website?" I always thought it would be nice to have an extra line on my pricing page that stated "Difficult Customer Fee: $TBD" :)
  - dwj 14y ago
    The other issue is that many of my good customers have done some of the things on the 'difficult customer' list. You can't easily pigeon hole customers as 'bad'. I have only had one REALLY bad customer - he tended to swear in his email (and his password was "fuckyou"), he used various aliases, and lots of people on forums said he basically scammed them. Also he was very rude and dumb. Anyways, I decided to charge him about 5x the normal rate (and he was too dumb to notice). This is the only time I've ever done this. Anyway, he paid for a year or two and then (thankfully) went out of business. However even my best (and nicest) customers do some of the things here...sometimes they give me a big long list of questions at their first contact, or persistently call if they have what they think is an urgent problem or question. Usually as long as they're not rude I don't have a problem with it, and they're normally pretty happy if I send an email saying I'll reply after the weekend or whatever.
deleted 14y ago
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benihana 14y ago
>But asking us to drop our price by 25% or 30% just for kicks is not typically a sign of an outstanding customer. Disagree completely. Repeatedly asking for a discount over a long period of time for no reason, maybe. But just asking for a discount at the beginning or out of the blue seems to be a wise tactic in financial transactions. If I ask for a discount the worst they can do is say no, and very often they say yes and I pay less. If I ask and they say no I and I push it and they're firm about not giving a discount, great - I'm paying a fair price that we're both happy about. If I ask and they lower their price, great - they lowered their price and now I'm paying a fair price that we're both happy about. Just seems to be part of the game you play...
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  Whether it's "part of the game" is probably regional, but he does say it takes the presence of several to really pinpoint the toxic ones.
- halcyondaze 14y ago
  I work with a SaaS product, and we've noticed that almost every customer that asks us for a discount right off the bat tends to 1. Have a low LTV and 2. Not be a good fit for us support and headache-wise. Just our experience.
- jakejake 14y ago
  There are some valid reasons for asking for a discount, such as plans to buy a large quantity of licenses, pay for a year in advance, the company is a charity, non-profit, school, etc. If the request for a discount didn't have some sort of justification like this then I still wouldn't write them off, but I would probably make a mental note. Regardless of the size of their company, some customers will never be content unless they bend you over backwards so far that you're losing money on their business. They want to get more value than they paid for. Whether that's because they don't appreciate the value of resources they consume, or it's intentional, I can never tell. On the flip-side, the weird thing is that these difficult customers can also wind up being your hugest fan. It can be a real love/hate relationship!
melanchton 14y ago
I feel like I read about some of our customers in post and comments. 10% of our customers generate 1-2 percents of revenue, and 70-80% of support emails (all urgent), phone calls, complaints to quality of service, requests to implement tons of custom features for them, e.t.c, e.t.c.
deltaqueue 14y ago
Sounds like this guy has never dealt with any Indian prospects, which notoriously exhibit many of these characteristics. Our most recent lead, which was a subsidiary of one of the largest companies in the world, involved dealing with one of the most painfully disrespectful employees in procurement that we've ever dealt with. After giving them an ultimatum that we weren't going to sign their agreement and that they could take ours or not sign at all, another employee at their company finally stepped in, apologized, and signed. Fortunately, the more qualified leads we've encountered and close in the area tend to exhibit only a few of these traits and are generally much more respectful, but prosecting is still quite different from the US.
af3 14y ago
maybe YOU need to stop bitching...
- eropple 14y ago
  I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I find these one or two thoroughly killed comments at the bottom of threads fascinating and you actually seem to have other, mostly reasonable posts. What is this post supposed to accomplish? What actual message are you trying to convey? What about this article made you feel compelled to write a one-off insult and nothing of substance?
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    Maybe he's the guy in the OP. :)
OldSchool 14y ago
Right-on! These scenarios are sadly straight out of real day-to-day life in a successful business. The colleague one is classic, or worse yet, you're called by the 'expert' himself who trivializes your product yet somehow is calling to buy it. Top of my list though is this: Customer negotiates again after delivery. "I want a refund unless I get convoluted feature X for free, or $Y off the price." Don't be afraid to fire a customer just to improve your quality of life. Bonus points for describing your direct competitor as a perfect fit. Finally, for sanity's sake, never give out your personal cellphone number. If you must be "reachable," use something you can block off-hours.
sarah2079 14y ago
One thing that has really surprised me is how little you can tell about a customer based on their initial email. When I get an angry or rude email, about 95% of the time they will turn into a polite human being once I respond calmly with help for their problem. A lot of people just do not expect to be able make contact with an actual human or to get any useful help, and are angry from the get go because of this. The article mentions "disrespectful & abrupt" emails. For me this extends this to include "angry and hateful." It is truly amazing the 180 people can do once they are talking to a person instead of an anonymous customer support address.
- josephlord 14y ago
  I think it is that they have usually reached a high level of frustration before they email and it all comes pouring out. The lack of expectation puts them off writing until they have reached the edge.
andrew_wc_brown 14y ago
The customer did sound like a hassle, but by the sound of the author I think he could have admitted ways he could have improved his customer support. - Multiple Questions that Can Be Answered from Your Website Improve the accessibility of the questions, educate the lead/customer on its location. - Asking for a discount Whether you like to haggle or not, there are people that think part of the buying process requires a haggle. Have a trivial bonus you can award to your haggler so they feel like a winner. - Carpet bombing info@ sales@ questions@ support@ and etc.. These emails are impersonal, people want to talk to real people. If you aren't a big company use your name or if you want a generic account that everyone can use just make up a name: jason@yourcompany.com - Calling your cellphone multiple times If you don't want to phone support. Don't list your cellphone on your website. If you have to list a number go buy one that goes to an answering machine. - Email Ping Pong If you're lead/customer is getting frustrated with every back paddle of an email you send back its possible you aren't communicating in a way they understand or your not giving them an answer they'd accept. You don't have to give them the answer they want just one they get.
awayand 14y ago
"can we hit the reset button on this please?" I like this expression
nickesh_23 14y ago
Am I the only founder here who enjoys the challenge of a toxic customer? Make the deal, sign a short term contract, then drop communication. A customer is only toxic when they know they have leverage. My strategy: build up a false sense of leverage during the deal cycle, then at the end DHV and threaten to pull away, close the deal, and make em feel like you did them a favor. Never say no. Never charge a higher price. Get the customer first, and then make them want you, not hate you. In regards to the specific example of the 80 question doc, I would've simply replied "sorry, I'm not experienced enough to answer these, then tell him to wait to hear from another sales manager, then circle back in 3 weeks seeing if he got his questions answered (even though you know he hasn't). He's happier than getting a "no", and his boss will wonder why the purchase hasn't happened yet. Delay, delay, delay, and let the customer come back to you. That is the filter. No use in prematurely judging a customer and potentially losing business forever. Don't less SaaS economics ruin the salesman's tact. It's all we got left. - god of parking and traffic

162 points by craigkerstiens 14y ago

I presume this came up because it was auto-tweeted from swombat.com (this got retweeted today: http://swombat.com/2010/12/9/how-to-detect-a-toxic-customer http://swombat.com/2010/12/9/how-to-detect-a-toxic-customer ). If so, it's worth pointing to Joel Spolsky's response to this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987223 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987223 Definitely worth a read alongside this article.

danielweber 14y ago
It's not true that large companies will form the bulk of your revenue. It all depends on what you are doing. If you are making something that every company in the world needs one of, than you will sell a lot more to the 501 through 5000th biggest companies in the country than to the top 500. (You might be able to charge those big companies a 50% or even 100% premium on various add-ons, but it won't come close to matching the other revenue.)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jlarocco 14y ago
  But that's not how software works most of the time. With most software licensing schemes large companies are, for lack of a better phrase, gold mines. They have more money, more users, more computers, more servers, require more support, and require higher up time. All of which you can charge them for if you license your software appropriately. Not to mention it's usually easier to jump through hoops for one or two huge customers than it is for a hundred small customers.
larrys 14y ago
Thanks for posting that. This statement by spolsky, from my many years experience, is correct and needs to be emphasized: "Summary: while it's fine to turn away truly toxic customers, and you are welcome to decide that you'd rather sell to the starving startup founders on Y-combinator who would rather spend 2 hours scouring your website than deal with a salesperson, the corporate customers turn out to be remarkably price-insensitive, once they make a purchase they will keep paying you maintenance for years long after the product is not even in use, and they're just as likely to leave you alone as the small guys, but they do have "multiple stakeholders" and if you want to sell to them you need a process that matches their reality." The problem with some of the advice given on HN is that it is right and wrong depending on the circumstances. Many of the people reading that advice don't have years and years of real world experience and may take that advice out of context to their detriment. (Note I say "many" which doesn't mean "most" or "all").
- npsimons 14y ago
  the corporate customers turn out to be remarkably price-insensitive, I haven't read all of Spolsky's response yet, but I find this comment interesting in light of the fact that the original article specifically calls out customers who ask for a discount with no justification. Okay, I can see that some places need to check all 80 boxes on their IT purchase approval sheet (I work for one of them), but if they are asking for that, AND being impatient, AND being rude, AND asking for a discount? You don't have be an accountant to see that you will be losing money on that sale. Circumstances indeed will inform choices better than rote rules, but that cuts both ways; if you suddenly jack your prices, many customers will assume you're trying to bilk them and go somewhere else.
  - plorkyeran 14y ago
    In a lot of cases the person making the purchase won't actually care about the price, but will want to appear to care; they'd rather get 25% off $10k than 0% off $5k.
  - rasmuswissmann 14y ago
    Spolsky's argument is that the sale will typically go through without a discount and thus it is not a real problem. "Big companies often have purchasing departments actually do the purchase. They are trained to expect discounts and the people in the purchasing department know a lot more about asking for discounts than they know about software, because that is their specialized role in the organization. If you politely tell them that you have one price for everyone, they'll still purchase, because the purchasing department ususally doesn't have the power to stop the purchase."
jusben1369 14y ago
Thanks for posting. Joel does outline the dynamics of an enterprise or larger sales prospect or customer. But he's also highlighting the dynamics of a toxic prospect so it's not that far from the original author's point. If you're dealing directly with procurement, if you're filling out 80 questions and returning via email, if it's a 10 person team drawing it up and giving it to Junior to go chase down...............you're not going to win the business and it's going to suck out time and worse, you may get emotionally attached because it is a larger opportunity so the team will get deflated. This author is correct either way in pushing back on these requests. If your offering is truly of interest to them they will engage in the manner you want. (which is what happened here when they kicked the original guy to the curb and someone more reasonable took over)
scott_s 14y ago
And please also read the counter-counter-points in that thread, in particular, one by the original author: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1988330 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1988330 And http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1990229 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1990229
- chris_wot 14y ago
  There are some great comments fom the last time this was on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146

radley 14y ago

We got one yesterday. Had a list of changes he expected us to make for our app. Most were really redundant and outdated ideas. I wrote responses to each portion of his email: yes, no, maybe... I got to the last paragraph: if we made all of the changes he'd be happy to bump up his rating of our app to 3 or 4 stars. At that point I deleted everything I wrote and instead politely brushed him off and offered a refund.

Firehed 14y ago
This is why it's best to avoid line-by-line negotiations. Wait until everything is on the table, see what the offer is, and go from there. If you aren't interested in the end result, you can save yourself a lot of time. If you are, it allows you to figure out the things you care most and least about, and apply flexibility accordingly.
sarah2079 14y ago
I get this all the time. My strategy is to respond honestly about whether any of the changes they are suggesting are coming and why I have decided not to add them if they are not, and when it comes to the rating bribery just ignore the fact that they mentioned it. Also popular: "I will buy your in app purchase if you add/change X" (So tempting! A whole 99 cents you say?). Interestingly with this treatment I have not noticed these customers being any more trouble than usual as a group. They usually seem very happy to get an honest response from a real person. Even though behavior like this irks me, I think it is mainly a symptom of the fact that you often have to try so hard to be heard by customer support these days.

danielweber 14y ago

It looks like internal politics at the prospect were at play here. The guy didn't want to be doing this and decided to take his bad attitude out on the vendor he was assigned to deal with.

wtracy 14y ago
Now that you say that, that brings up the possibility that the guy was actually hoping to sabotage the purchase.

bryanr 14y ago

The point about asking questions you can get from the website definitely rings true. We had a customer ask us about 15 questions, the answers to which were all on the website on our features page. He then asked for us to walk him through the installation of our app and a demo. After 30 minutes, we had to cut him off. We'll definitely be on the look out for these types of customers going forward - and the cost definitely outweighs any sales we would get from these toxic customers.

Negitivefrags 14y ago

I don't see why asking for a discount is so toxic. We ask for a discount on every transaction with a 3rd party our business makes and more often than not we get one. It seems like most business to business transactions start with the "dummy price" out the gate.

PotatoEngineer 14y ago
That's why the article talks about looking for "2 or 3" warning signs rather than just one. Just about any customer can show one of those warning signs and be a perfectly acceptable customer, but when they have several, they're almost certainly toxic.
dotBen 14y ago
> We ask for a discount on every transaction with a 3rd party our business makes I'm curious to learn why you do that? On "contact a sales person" type sales I can understand but you use the term 'transaction' which implies you are doing this on self-service purchases. Most self-service businesses are setup to streamline (ie avoid) human-interactions which would also suggest they are honestly pricing their goods/services. By contacting them for a discount you're already increasing their CAC before you then ask for a discount too. If you have sticker-shock on the price because it's not offering a return value to you or you cannot afford it then you're probably not a target customer. That's why I don't go into the Ferrari dealership and ask for 10% off.
- aes256 14y ago
  > Most self-service businesses are setup to streamline (ie avoid) human-interactions which would also suggest they are honestly pricing their goods/services. This doesn't follow. It shows they are concerned with reducing their costs, not that they will pass those cost savings onto the customer. Don't ask, don't get. If you are going to be a solid, profitable customer for a business, they have a clear incentive to get you on board by sweetening the deal.
  - dotBen 14y ago

jasonkester 14y ago

This kicked off a nice long discussion last time it showed up here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1987146 Well worth a read just for Joel Spolsky's comment at the top of the thread.

tatsuke95 14y ago

Anyone who has worked selling...anything, can understand where you're coming from. There are some real d-bags out there, and some will end up as potential customers. But as a guy who has been on the other end of these calls, far too often, I can sympathize with wanting some directness. I can't tell you how many times I write an inquiry to a company with some basic questions, and next thing you know I'm bombarded by requests to get me on a sales call. I don't have time; phone calls are inconvenient, emails are not. I've done my research, please answer my questions so I can decide whether to buy your product or not. That's my approach now. I try to be as cordial as possible, but I ask direct questions, usually via email. If you can't answer them, I can't buy what you're selling.

BryanB55 14y ago
I've experienced this both ways. Usually when I'm looking for business products or services they are more likely to want to do an annoying "sales call" but I've also experienced this as a business owner. We try to offer a very simple service where customers can sign up online and find all of the information they need on our website. However we still get customers that will literally email us and ask us to call them (as if they can't call our toll-free number) so that they can literally ask the most basic questions. The worst is when they ask us to "send them a proposal" or "when you can have a conference call with us?". We work with clients in the real estate industry, real estate offices, builders, etc... I think certain industries are accustomed to working certain ways or just follow the traditional "corporate attitude" of meetings and conference calls. If you really want a low-touch, low pain customer base I think the industry you choose is also very important.

otakucode 14y ago

Never say no. EVER. I mean it. Not one single time, not under any circumstances ever. Make them say no. The way you do this is by determining just how much you would have to be paid in order to deal with the customer. It doesn't matter if it's a completely unreasonable number. Name it. Don't just presume they will refuse and turn them away. Tell them that your product which would normally cost $1k is going to cost them $50k or $100k. What have you got to lose? Worst case scenario they will pay you a giant amount of money, and you'll have a bit of a headache, but one that you have already determined you are willing to take on for the price you named. This applies to customers, potential employers, and basically everything in life. There is ALWAYS a price. So take the gamble. Let them decide if it's worth it from their own perspective... maybe you'll get lucky!

BryanB55 14y ago
It's funny we've thought about doing this in a startup I run in the real estate industry where most of our customers are realtors. Unfortunately it's not always easy to arbitrarily raise your prices for the difficult customers because they complain even more and ask "where does it say that there will be a charge or fee for this on your website?" I always thought it would be nice to have an extra line on my pricing page that stated "Difficult Customer Fee: $TBD" :)
- dwj 14y ago
  The other issue is that many of my good customers have done some of the things on the 'difficult customer' list. You can't easily pigeon hole customers as 'bad'. I have only had one REALLY bad customer - he tended to swear in his email (and his password was "fuckyou"), he used various aliases, and lots of people on forums said he basically scammed them. Also he was very rude and dumb. Anyways, I decided to charge him about 5x the normal rate (and he was too dumb to notice). This is the only time I've ever done this. Anyway, he paid for a year or two and then (thankfully) went out of business. However even my best (and nicest) customers do some of the things here...sometimes they give me a big long list of questions at their first contact, or persistently call if they have what they think is an urgent problem or question. Usually as long as they're not rude I don't have a problem with it, and they're normally pretty happy if I send an email saying I'll reply after the weekend or whatever.

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benihana 14y ago

>But asking us to drop our price by 25% or 30% just for kicks is not typically a sign of an outstanding customer. Disagree completely. Repeatedly asking for a discount over a long period of time for no reason, maybe. But just asking for a discount at the beginning or out of the blue seems to be a wise tactic in financial transactions. If I ask for a discount the worst they can do is say no, and very often they say yes and I pay less. If I ask and they say no I and I push it and they're firm about not giving a discount, great - I'm paying a fair price that we're both happy about. If I ask and they lower their price, great - they lowered their price and now I'm paying a fair price that we're both happy about. Just seems to be part of the game you play...

fusiongyro 14y ago
Whether it's "part of the game" is probably regional, but he does say it takes the presence of several to really pinpoint the toxic ones.
halcyondaze 14y ago
I work with a SaaS product, and we've noticed that almost every customer that asks us for a discount right off the bat tends to 1. Have a low LTV and 2. Not be a good fit for us support and headache-wise. Just our experience.
jakejake 14y ago
There are some valid reasons for asking for a discount, such as plans to buy a large quantity of licenses, pay for a year in advance, the company is a charity, non-profit, school, etc. If the request for a discount didn't have some sort of justification like this then I still wouldn't write them off, but I would probably make a mental note. Regardless of the size of their company, some customers will never be content unless they bend you over backwards so far that you're losing money on their business. They want to get more value than they paid for. Whether that's because they don't appreciate the value of resources they consume, or it's intentional, I can never tell. On the flip-side, the weird thing is that these difficult customers can also wind up being your hugest fan. It can be a real love/hate relationship!

melanchton 14y ago

I feel like I read about some of our customers in post and comments. 10% of our customers generate 1-2 percents of revenue, and 70-80% of support emails (all urgent), phone calls, complaints to quality of service, requests to implement tons of custom features for them, e.t.c, e.t.c.

deltaqueue 14y ago

Sounds like this guy has never dealt with any Indian prospects, which notoriously exhibit many of these characteristics. Our most recent lead, which was a subsidiary of one of the largest companies in the world, involved dealing with one of the most painfully disrespectful employees in procurement that we've ever dealt with. After giving them an ultimatum that we weren't going to sign their agreement and that they could take ours or not sign at all, another employee at their company finally stepped in, apologized, and signed. Fortunately, the more qualified leads we've encountered and close in the area tend to exhibit only a few of these traits and are generally much more respectful, but prosecting is still quite different from the US.

af3 14y ago

maybe YOU need to stop bitching...

eropple 14y ago
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I find these one or two thoroughly killed comments at the bottom of threads fascinating and you actually seem to have other, mostly reasonable posts. What is this post supposed to accomplish? What actual message are you trying to convey? What about this article made you feel compelled to write a one-off insult and nothing of substance?
- ben0x539 14y ago
  Maybe he's the guy in the OP. :)

OldSchool 14y ago

Right-on! These scenarios are sadly straight out of real day-to-day life in a successful business. The colleague one is classic, or worse yet, you're called by the 'expert' himself who trivializes your product yet somehow is calling to buy it. Top of my list though is this: Customer negotiates again after delivery. "I want a refund unless I get convoluted feature X for free, or $Y off the price." Don't be afraid to fire a customer just to improve your quality of life. Bonus points for describing your direct competitor as a perfect fit. Finally, for sanity's sake, never give out your personal cellphone number. If you must be "reachable," use something you can block off-hours.

sarah2079 14y ago

One thing that has really surprised me is how little you can tell about a customer based on their initial email. When I get an angry or rude email, about 95% of the time they will turn into a polite human being once I respond calmly with help for their problem. A lot of people just do not expect to be able make contact with an actual human or to get any useful help, and are angry from the get go because of this. The article mentions "disrespectful & abrupt" emails. For me this extends this to include "angry and hateful." It is truly amazing the 180 people can do once they are talking to a person instead of an anonymous customer support address.

josephlord 14y ago
I think it is that they have usually reached a high level of frustration before they email and it all comes pouring out. The lack of expectation puts them off writing until they have reached the edge.

andrew_wc_brown 14y ago

The customer did sound like a hassle, but by the sound of the author I think he could have admitted ways he could have improved his customer support. - Multiple Questions that Can Be Answered from Your Website Improve the accessibility of the questions, educate the lead/customer on its location. - Asking for a discount Whether you like to haggle or not, there are people that think part of the buying process requires a haggle. Have a trivial bonus you can award to your haggler so they feel like a winner. - Carpet bombing info@ sales@ questions@ support@ and etc.. These emails are impersonal, people want to talk to real people. If you aren't a big company use your name or if you want a generic account that everyone can use just make up a name: jason@yourcompany.com - Calling your cellphone multiple times If you don't want to phone support. Don't list your cellphone on your website. If you have to list a number go buy one that goes to an answering machine. - Email Ping Pong If you're lead/customer is getting frustrated with every back paddle of an email you send back its possible you aren't communicating in a way they understand or your not giving them an answer they'd accept. You don't have to give them the answer they want just one they get.

awayand 14y ago

"can we hit the reset button on this please?" I like this expression

nickesh_23 14y ago

Am I the only founder here who enjoys the challenge of a toxic customer? Make the deal, sign a short term contract, then drop communication. A customer is only toxic when they know they have leverage. My strategy: build up a false sense of leverage during the deal cycle, then at the end DHV and threaten to pull away, close the deal, and make em feel like you did them a favor. Never say no. Never charge a higher price. Get the customer first, and then make them want you, not hate you. In regards to the specific example of the 80 question doc, I would've simply replied "sorry, I'm not experienced enough to answer these, then tell him to wait to hear from another sales manager, then circle back in 3 weeks seeing if he got his questions answered (even though you know he hasn't). He's happier than getting a "no", and his boss will wonder why the purchase hasn't happened yet. Delay, delay, delay, and let the customer come back to you. That is the filter. No use in prematurely judging a customer and potentially losing business forever. Don't less SaaS economics ruin the salesman's tact. It's all we got left. - god of parking and traffic