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Not really interested in using models hosted on alibaba cloud. Like Qwen local for it’s privacy, but I trust the privacy of Google/OpenAI/Anthropic more than a

Not really interested in using models hosted on alibaba cloud. Like Qwen local for it’s privacy, but I trust the privacy of Google/OpenAI/Anthropic more than alibaba.

rvz 7mo ago
> Like Qwen local for it’s privacy, but I trust the privacy of Google/OpenAI/Anthropic more than alibaba. None should be trusted, unless you are running them locally.
the_pwner224 7mo ago
I had the exact opposite reaction. I stopped using OpenAI/Google a while ago due to privacy and moved to local Qwen, now I'm considering using Alibaba cloud. You know Google and OpenAI are going to share everything with the US government and Western ad networks. But with Alibaba, who cares if the CCP & Chinese ad networks have a comprehensive profile on me? From a pragmatic perspective it's much better for (outcomes related to) privacy.
- zobzu 7mo ago
  so if China has the data good, us has the data bad, got it lol. us actually has laws around this and they arent sharing very much with thr us gov today. china shares 100% as required by law. and neither care much about "how long do i cook eggs for", but they do care about code generation a lot.
  - thereitgoes456 7mo ago
    > so if China has the data good, us has the data bad It's not that, it's about relative risk to your own life. Asking questions about "DEI" for example is much more likely to have adverse effects on your life if you ask Grok or an OpenAI chatbot, though still not that likely.
  - wongarsu 7mo ago
    From an espionage perspective your own government is the safest. But from a civil rights perspective your own government is your most immediate threat. China isn't going to arrest me for my opinions on Netanyahu, my own government could And the US government has repeatedly shown that it is very interested in collecting all the data available, just like China. In China this is simply done in the open while the US has a veneer of protection for citizens. But where the data collection is forbidden by law they either ignore the law or ask another five eyes member to do the spying and share the results. Both are well documented
    - malshe 7mo ago
      > China isn't going to arrest me for my opinions on Netanyahu, my own government could I don't know whether you really believe this or it was an off the cuff remark. China is not going to tell you why they plan to arrest you. China is not a benevolent dictatorship.
      - wongarsu 7mo ago
        The actual offense isn't important, nor is whether they arrest me or just kick in my door and look through my stuff. What matters is that if I'm not in China I don't have to particularly care what Chinese officials think about me. My local police can kick in my door, Chinese police can't. At least as long as I stay out of China
        zozbot234 7mo ago
        As a matter of fact, there's been multiple reports of the Chinese doing informal, heavy "policing" of their own citizens abroad. Even if you aren't Chinese or linked to China yourself, this does affect the strength of that particular argument.
        justinclift 7mo ago
        > ... this does affect the strength of that particular argument. It doesn't really affect the strength of that particular argument. And you're being misleading, seemingly on purpose. Please don't.
- CamperBob2 7mo ago
  As with all arguments equivalent to "I have nothing to hide, so I have nothing to fear," it may be true now, but it may not be true later. The only certainty is that this will not be your call.
  - the_pwner224 7mo ago
    Agreed
- daft_pink 7mo ago
  So I guess if it’s your personal data that’s up to you, but if you have private client data and client of your client data and that’s the fundamental reason why you are doing local ai, I can’t imagine moving from qwen local to qwen alibaba after not choosing google/anthropic/openai
edg5000 7mo ago
I build custom harnesses (like many of us) and I genuinely think Anthropic will eventually sue their customers if they detect they are selling competing harnesses (competes with their vertically integrated offerrings). I feel Alibaba and DeepSeek see themselves more as infra. No urge to control the stack and litigate competition out of existence.

Not really interested in using models hosted on alibaba cloud. Like Qwen local for it’s privacy, but I trust the privacy of Google/OpenAI/Anthropic more than alibaba.

rvz 7mo ago

> Like Qwen local for it’s privacy, but I trust the privacy of Google/OpenAI/Anthropic more than alibaba. None should be trusted, unless you are running them locally.

the_pwner224 7mo ago

I had the exact opposite reaction. I stopped using OpenAI/Google a while ago due to privacy and moved to local Qwen, now I'm considering using Alibaba cloud. You know Google and OpenAI are going to share everything with the US government and Western ad networks. But with Alibaba, who cares if the CCP & Chinese ad networks have a comprehensive profile on me? From a pragmatic perspective it's much better for (outcomes related to) privacy.

zobzu 7mo ago
so if China has the data good, us has the data bad, got it lol. us actually has laws around this and they arent sharing very much with thr us gov today. china shares 100% as required by law. and neither care much about "how long do i cook eggs for", but they do care about code generation a lot.
- thereitgoes456 7mo ago
  > so if China has the data good, us has the data bad It's not that, it's about relative risk to your own life. Asking questions about "DEI" for example is much more likely to have adverse effects on your life if you ask Grok or an OpenAI chatbot, though still not that likely.
- wongarsu 7mo ago
  From an espionage perspective your own government is the safest. But from a civil rights perspective your own government is your most immediate threat. China isn't going to arrest me for my opinions on Netanyahu, my own government could And the US government has repeatedly shown that it is very interested in collecting all the data available, just like China. In China this is simply done in the open while the US has a veneer of protection for citizens. But where the data collection is forbidden by law they either ignore the law or ask another five eyes member to do the spying and share the results. Both are well documented
  - malshe 7mo ago
    > China isn't going to arrest me for my opinions on Netanyahu, my own government could I don't know whether you really believe this or it was an off the cuff remark. China is not going to tell you why they plan to arrest you. China is not a benevolent dictatorship.
    - wongarsu 7mo ago
      The actual offense isn't important, nor is whether they arrest me or just kick in my door and look through my stuff. What matters is that if I'm not in China I don't have to particularly care what Chinese officials think about me. My local police can kick in my door, Chinese police can't. At least as long as I stay out of China
      - zozbot234 7mo ago
        As a matter of fact, there's been multiple reports of the Chinese doing informal, heavy "policing" of their own citizens abroad. Even if you aren't Chinese or linked to China yourself, this does affect the strength of that particular argument.
        justinclift 7mo ago
        > ... this does affect the strength of that particular argument. It doesn't really affect the strength of that particular argument. And you're being misleading, seemingly on purpose. Please don't.
CamperBob2 7mo ago
As with all arguments equivalent to "I have nothing to hide, so I have nothing to fear," it may be true now, but it may not be true later. The only certainty is that this will not be your call.
- the_pwner224 7mo ago
  Agreed
daft_pink 7mo ago
So I guess if it’s your personal data that’s up to you, but if you have private client data and client of your client data and that’s the fundamental reason why you are doing local ai, I can’t imagine moving from qwen local to qwen alibaba after not choosing google/anthropic/openai

edg5000 7mo ago

I build custom harnesses (like many of us) and I genuinely think Anthropic will eventually sue their customers if they detect they are selling competing harnesses (competes with their vertically integrated offerrings). I feel Alibaba and DeepSeek see themselves more as infra. No urge to control the stack and litigate competition out of existence.