4 ms·

Good decision. AI programming is fundamentally different from programming and as such the discussions merit to have separate forums. If r/programming wants to

by yoz-y 7mo ago

Good decision. AI programming is fundamentally different from programming and as such the discussions merit to have separate forums. If r/programming wants to be the one solely focusing on programming then power to them. Discussing both in combination also makes sense, but the value of reddit is having a subreddit for anything and “just programming” should be on the list.

redox99 7mo ago
> AI programming is fundamentally different from programming It's really not. Maybe vibecoding, in its original definition (not looking at generated code) is fundamentally different. But most people are not vibe coding outside of pet projects, at least yet.
- hperrin 7mo ago
  It very much is. It’s more like telling an intern what to do and then reviewing their code. Anyone can do it, and it results in (mostly) slop.
- yoz-y 7mo ago
  Hopefully this does not devolve into ‘nuh-uh’-‘it is too’ but I disagree. Even putting aside the AI engineering part where you use a model as a brick in your program. Classic programming is based on assumption that there is a formal strict input language. When programming I think in that language, I hold the data structures and connections in my head. When debugging I have intuition on what is going on because I know how the code works. When working on somebody else’s code base I bisect, I try to find the abstractions. When coding with AI this does not happen. I can check the code it outputs but the speed and quantity does not permit the same level of understanding unless I eschew all benefits of using AI. When coding with AI I think about the context, the spec, the general shape of the code. When the code doesn’t build or crashes the first reflex is not to look at the code. It’s prompting AI to figure it out.
  - phpnode 7mo ago
    This is the same argument that people used to have against compilers
    - archagon 7mo ago
      Compilers are an abstraction. AI coding is not an abstraction by any reasonable definition.
      - phpnode 7mo ago
        You're only thinking that because we're mostly still at the imperative, REPL stage. We're telling them what to do in a loop. Instead we should be declaring what we want to be true.
        arretevad 7mo ago
        You’re describing a hypothetical that doesn’t exist. Even if we assume it will exist someday we can’t reasonably compare it to what exists today.
        phpnode 7mo ago
        It exists today, please message me if you’d like to try it
        xphos 7mo ago
        The value is in the imperative, the computer does what you tell it do, The control is very powerful and is arguably a major reason computer technology is as power and popular as it is today. Bits don't generally speaking argue with you the same way analog programming if by electronics or mechanical means did before the transistor. You can certainly write in imperative or functional but you are still telling the computer what you want. LLM use impercise language can generate loose binding the actual reality people one. They have there use cases too but they have a radically different locus of control. Compilers don't ask you to give up percision either they will do what you tell them to do. AI can do whatever it thinks is the most likely next token which is foundationally different from what we do when we engage in programming or writing in general
- chneu 7mo ago
  >But most people are not vibe coding outside of pet projects, at least yet. Major corporations have had outages thanks to AI slop code. Lol the idea that people aren't vibe coding outside of pet projects is hilarious.
  - hu3 7mo ago
    The idea that everyone using LLMs is vibe coding is equally hilarious.
    - tovej 7mo ago
      If you use an LLM to generate source code you are vibecoding. You specify the problem in natural language (the vibes) and the LLM spits out source (the code). Whether you review it or not, that is vibecoding. You did not go through the rigor of translating the requirements to a programming language, you had a nondeterministic black box generate something in the rough general vicinity of the prompt. Are people seriously trying to redefine what vibecoding is?
      - estimator7292 7mo ago
        > If you use an LLM to generate source code you are vibecoding No, you're not. > Are people seriously trying to redefine what vibecoding is? Yes, you are.
        tovej 7mo ago
        No, that is literally vibecoding. Reviewing vibecoded source is just an extra step. It's like saying "I'm not power toolgardening, I use a pair of gardening scissors afterwards." You still did power tool gardening. As additional proof, the dictionary definition of vibe coding is "the use of artificial intelligence prompted by natural language to assist with the writing of computer code" [1] It seems like vibecoders don't like the label and are retconning the term. [1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vibe-coding https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vibe-co...
tasuki 7mo ago
They're not banning "AI programming": just specifically large language models.
JKCalhoun 7mo ago
Sure, but if r/programming can't include the combination/hybrid then the whole subreddit is likely doomed to obsolescence. That genie's not going back into the lamp. (Heck, I've leaned on LLMs to generate damned SwiftUI code for me.)
- archagon 7mo ago
  I mean, no, why would it be? There is so, so much to talk about in programming other than AI. Meanwhile, the current HN front page feels like 90% LLM spam: the complete antithesis of what I used to come here for. I personally can’t wait for no-ai communities to proliferate.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - tolerance 7mo ago
    Taking your estimate as a superlative, it would be asinine for the community here to censor AI-targeted discussions in the way I think you'd like to. The same goes for a programming community that censors discussions about LLM programming. You are basically asking for a brain drain in a field that—like it or not—is going to be crucial in the future in spite of its obvious warts and poor implementation in the present. If that's what you want, be my guest and encourage it; but who's authorized to unilaterally make that decision in a given forum? In the present case, the moderators for r/programming are. But they're making a mistake by marginalizing the technology that's redefining the practice because people talk about it too much instead of thinking about how to effectively talk about it and then steering the community in that direction. But that's a full-time job. Which is why I think HN may turn out alright in the long run or a similar community will replace it if it fails to temper the change in the industry. What this decisions signals to me is that r/programming has been inert for some time. I'm sure plenty of programmers, irrespective of their position on AI, probably find the community rejoicing in their resignation to the technologies influence as their cue to finally exit.
    - ratrace 7mo ago

by yoz-y 7mo ago

redox99 7mo ago

> AI programming is fundamentally different from programming It's really not. Maybe vibecoding, in its original definition (not looking at generated code) is fundamentally different. But most people are not vibe coding outside of pet projects, at least yet.

hperrin 7mo ago
It very much is. It’s more like telling an intern what to do and then reviewing their code. Anyone can do it, and it results in (mostly) slop.
yoz-y 7mo ago
Hopefully this does not devolve into ‘nuh-uh’-‘it is too’ but I disagree. Even putting aside the AI engineering part where you use a model as a brick in your program. Classic programming is based on assumption that there is a formal strict input language. When programming I think in that language, I hold the data structures and connections in my head. When debugging I have intuition on what is going on because I know how the code works. When working on somebody else’s code base I bisect, I try to find the abstractions. When coding with AI this does not happen. I can check the code it outputs but the speed and quantity does not permit the same level of understanding unless I eschew all benefits of using AI. When coding with AI I think about the context, the spec, the general shape of the code. When the code doesn’t build or crashes the first reflex is not to look at the code. It’s prompting AI to figure it out.
- phpnode 7mo ago
  This is the same argument that people used to have against compilers
  - archagon 7mo ago
    Compilers are an abstraction. AI coding is not an abstraction by any reasonable definition.
    - phpnode 7mo ago
      You're only thinking that because we're mostly still at the imperative, REPL stage. We're telling them what to do in a loop. Instead we should be declaring what we want to be true.
      - arretevad 7mo ago
        You’re describing a hypothetical that doesn’t exist. Even if we assume it will exist someday we can’t reasonably compare it to what exists today.
        phpnode 7mo ago
        It exists today, please message me if you’d like to try it
      - xphos 7mo ago
        The value is in the imperative, the computer does what you tell it do, The control is very powerful and is arguably a major reason computer technology is as power and popular as it is today. Bits don't generally speaking argue with you the same way analog programming if by electronics or mechanical means did before the transistor. You can certainly write in imperative or functional but you are still telling the computer what you want. LLM use impercise language can generate loose binding the actual reality people one. They have there use cases too but they have a radically different locus of control. Compilers don't ask you to give up percision either they will do what you tell them to do. AI can do whatever it thinks is the most likely next token which is foundationally different from what we do when we engage in programming or writing in general
chneu 7mo ago
>But most people are not vibe coding outside of pet projects, at least yet. Major corporations have had outages thanks to AI slop code. Lol the idea that people aren't vibe coding outside of pet projects is hilarious.
- hu3 7mo ago
  The idea that everyone using LLMs is vibe coding is equally hilarious.
  - tovej 7mo ago
    If you use an LLM to generate source code you are vibecoding. You specify the problem in natural language (the vibes) and the LLM spits out source (the code). Whether you review it or not, that is vibecoding. You did not go through the rigor of translating the requirements to a programming language, you had a nondeterministic black box generate something in the rough general vicinity of the prompt. Are people seriously trying to redefine what vibecoding is?
    - estimator7292 7mo ago
      > If you use an LLM to generate source code you are vibecoding No, you're not. > Are people seriously trying to redefine what vibecoding is? Yes, you are.
      - tovej 7mo ago
        No, that is literally vibecoding. Reviewing vibecoded source is just an extra step. It's like saying "I'm not power toolgardening, I use a pair of gardening scissors afterwards." You still did power tool gardening. As additional proof, the dictionary definition of vibe coding is "the use of artificial intelligence prompted by natural language to assist with the writing of computer code" [1] It seems like vibecoders don't like the label and are retconning the term. [1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vibe-coding https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vibe-co...

tasuki 7mo ago

They're not banning "AI programming": just specifically large language models.

JKCalhoun 7mo ago

Sure, but if r/programming can't include the combination/hybrid then the whole subreddit is likely doomed to obsolescence. That genie's not going back into the lamp. (Heck, I've leaned on LLMs to generate damned SwiftUI code for me.)

archagon 7mo ago
I mean, no, why would it be? There is so, so much to talk about in programming other than AI. Meanwhile, the current HN front page feels like 90% LLM spam: the complete antithesis of what I used to come here for. I personally can’t wait for no-ai communities to proliferate.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- tolerance 7mo ago
  Taking your estimate as a superlative, it would be asinine for the community here to censor AI-targeted discussions in the way I think you'd like to. The same goes for a programming community that censors discussions about LLM programming. You are basically asking for a brain drain in a field that—like it or not—is going to be crucial in the future in spite of its obvious warts and poor implementation in the present. If that's what you want, be my guest and encourage it; but who's authorized to unilaterally make that decision in a given forum? In the present case, the moderators for r/programming are. But they're making a mistake by marginalizing the technology that's redefining the practice because people talk about it too much instead of thinking about how to effectively talk about it and then steering the community in that direction. But that's a full-time job. Which is why I think HN may turn out alright in the long run or a similar community will replace it if it fails to temper the change in the industry. What this decisions signals to me is that r/programming has been inert for some time. I'm sure plenty of programmers, irrespective of their position on AI, probably find the community rejoicing in their resignation to the technologies influence as their cue to finally exit.
  - ratrace 7mo ago