4 ms·

Take note of a project that’s about 15 years behind schedule and many multiples over budget finally progressed because we lowered safety standards to just launc

by tw04 6mo ago

Take note of a project that’s about 15 years behind schedule and many multiples over budget finally progressed because we lowered safety standards to just launch? I’m not sure how that’s proof the government isn’t gutted. Let me know what our schedule is for the next one and how that timeline has changed. Ignoring the projects that have been outright canceled… You’re currently the guy saying “ya, all you haters that said I’d lose my house if I stopped paying my mortgage, who’s laughing now?” - one month into not paying your mortgage. We’ll still be dealing with the after effects of doge 20 years from now.

partiallypro 6mo ago
Don't confuse bureaucracy with "gutted." The federal government is bigger than at most any point in US history. Arguably that fact is -why- it's 15 years behind schedule.
- mullingitover 6mo ago
  Nope, the federal workforce is now the smallest it's been in a half century[1]. February 2026: 2.693 million, the lowest number since July 1965. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CES9091000001 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CES9091000001
  - partiallypro 6mo ago
    That's per 100k (which just says it's mostly flat per 100k), net spending of the federal government is more than ever, and actual workforce is bigger than ever. Federal spending as a percentage of GDP is stubbornly high despite us being in "peace time," and not recession spending. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W068RCQ027SBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W068RCQ027SBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USGOVT https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USGOVT https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S If you all don't think bureaucracy is the main driver of government delays...well you clearly have never worked with or in and around government. I try to live in reality.
    - mullingitover 6mo ago
      > That's per 100k No, it's a plain headcount. Your first link is a chart of non-inflation adjusted spending. Your second link is all government, not just federal employees so it's not really germane to the discussion, and your third link includes things like Social Security, and frankly...good. Without the government stabilizing spending the economy would be even more of a dumpster fire of random investor panics. I'm close to a number of people in the public sector. They're brilliant, they do great work and they aren't paid what they're worth. I've also worked for a long time in a mega-corp. It was frequently just as bureaucratic and wasteful, if not more so, than the government.
      - bdangubic 6mo ago
        > No, it's a plain headcount > They're brilliant, they do great work and they aren't paid what they're worth The headcount of such wonderful people you are describing has been reduced but then replaced by 3x+ times the rates Gov is paying for the contractors that were hired (I am one of them). so this headcount being low is a nothing more than political smokescreen that will probably be used in campaigns leading up to November election (not probably, certainly cause there is nothing else to run if you are member of the ruling party)
        mullingitover 6mo ago
        I am willing to concede that it would be more financially responsible for the United States to greatly increase the size of the permanent federal workforce, and to stop making its size a political football.
      - partiallypro 6mo ago
        Even assuming what you're saying is correct and government spending doesn't matter (odd thing to say when you're arguing that the government has been "gutted,") your own chart is only flat over time because of USPS workers being less due to automation/retirement and there being less military recruitment (both account for about ~1.5M employees lost,) and doesn't include offloading to contractors. Underlying agencies and government is bigger than ever before. The government (federal AND state levels) itself is much larger, with more regulations, than it was even 20 years ago. Every company has bureaucracy, but it's nothing compared to government work. Also, government has no competition, bureaucracy in big companies will eventually be punished (even if it takes a long time.) In government it is often rewarded, both internally and externally (via regulatory capture, etc.) In any case, saying the federal government has been "gutted" is a flat lie. I don't see how people can argue otherwise. I want more money going to NASA, and more money going to civil projects like HSR, but would that magically remove 15 years of bureaucratic mess? No. More money to these projects can only happen on a large political scale if/when the bureaucratic red tape is cut to lower the costs. Adding an additional layer of bureaucrats and middle managers and pot of gold everyone can dip their hands in before it reaches the final project doesn't fix the issue.
JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
> we lowered safety standards to just launch Aren’t they still well above anything in the history of human space flight? We keep treating these systems in popular discourse as airliners. They’re not. They’re experimental craft. With mass production maybe SpaceX can bring launch closer to general aviation. But the notion that any loss of life is intolerable is (a) unsustainably expensive and (b) not a view shared by the lives actually at risk.
- NetMageSCW 6mo ago
  They aren’t in the same magnitude as F9 and Dragon to ISS, so no. I question if they are as safe as the shuttle (final computed risk 1:90).
  - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
    > aren’t in the same magnitude as F9 and Dragon to ISS, so no Fair enough. For a heat-shield discussion I guess we should talk about higher-energy missions. But conceded. LEO has normalized safe space travel.
tsunamifury 6mo ago
[flagged]
- richwater 6mo ago
  Come on man be honest. There were multiple, massive delays with the program related to literally every aspect. You're not engaging seriously.
  - tsunamifury 6mo ago
    [flagged]
    - ToucanLoucan 6mo ago
      I knew The Discourse on this would be toxic and awful and so much of this thread has proved it. My position is I would rather pay for 50 years of Artemis missions that never leave the ground than spend one more fucking dollar attempting to slow the descent of the American empire, or that of its colonies. This was inspiring and amazing to watch. Actual history being made. Competence displayed proudly. No culture war bullshit. No insipid speeches by dullards about REAL AMERICA. Just us doing something because we can, and with plans to do even more.
    - multiplegeorges 6mo ago
      > novel path Reusing Apollo-style stack, reusing Shuttle engines, reusing Shuttle-style SRBs. Novel?
    - dang 6mo ago
      Can you please stop crossing into personal attack and stop breaking the site guidelines generally? You've been doing it repeatedly, unfortunately. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: this is really bad: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435415 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435396 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47433967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47433967 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47381603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47381603 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47366370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47366370 (March 2026) If you keep this up, we're going to have to ban your account. I don't want to ban you, so it would be good if you'd fix this.
transcriptase 6mo ago
Indeed. The GSA with 10k employees is going to fall apart without the 40k unused winzip licences DOGE so cruelly took away from them in their senseless spree of madness.
- permalac 6mo ago
  That logic is very short term and while comical isn't close to reality. I hope you live a long and prosper life so you can see the consequences of this presidential term fully unfold.
kowbell 6mo ago
If it's 15 years behind budget and many multiples over budget, it wouldn't be DOGE's fault then?
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- dmix 6mo ago
  The main critique of the handling of heat shields also happened at NASA in 2022-2024 and the project continued on. Artemis is largely a product of congress.
ActorNightly 6mo ago
Remember when DOGE tried to cut out the inefficiencies and failed miserably? The "inefficiencies" and "bloated budgets" are there for a reason. If Elon ran this project "without bloat", there is probably a 70% chance that the vehicle would have exploded, much in the way of his Starship and early Falcon vehicles.
- NetMageSCW 6mo ago
  But that explosion would have cost one tenth the cost a single SLS launch and the next one would go a little further. And eventually you would be flying the most reliable rocket in history more frequently than any other rocket for one tenth the cost of the competition.
  - ActorNightly 6mo ago
    This works for getting things to LEO. This doesn't scale well as the distance increases. You can't keep launching shit to the moon, crashing it over and over, until you get it right.

by tw04 6mo ago

partiallypro 6mo ago

Don't confuse bureaucracy with "gutted." The federal government is bigger than at most any point in US history. Arguably that fact is -why- it's 15 years behind schedule.

mullingitover 6mo ago
Nope, the federal workforce is now the smallest it's been in a half century[1]. February 2026: 2.693 million, the lowest number since July 1965. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CES9091000001 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CES9091000001
- partiallypro 6mo ago
  That's per 100k (which just says it's mostly flat per 100k), net spending of the federal government is more than ever, and actual workforce is bigger than ever. Federal spending as a percentage of GDP is stubbornly high despite us being in "peace time," and not recession spending. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W068RCQ027SBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W068RCQ027SBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USGOVT https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USGOVT https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S If you all don't think bureaucracy is the main driver of government delays...well you clearly have never worked with or in and around government. I try to live in reality.
  - mullingitover 6mo ago
    > That's per 100k No, it's a plain headcount. Your first link is a chart of non-inflation adjusted spending. Your second link is all government, not just federal employees so it's not really germane to the discussion, and your third link includes things like Social Security, and frankly...good. Without the government stabilizing spending the economy would be even more of a dumpster fire of random investor panics. I'm close to a number of people in the public sector. They're brilliant, they do great work and they aren't paid what they're worth. I've also worked for a long time in a mega-corp. It was frequently just as bureaucratic and wasteful, if not more so, than the government.
    - bdangubic 6mo ago
      > No, it's a plain headcount > They're brilliant, they do great work and they aren't paid what they're worth The headcount of such wonderful people you are describing has been reduced but then replaced by 3x+ times the rates Gov is paying for the contractors that were hired (I am one of them). so this headcount being low is a nothing more than political smokescreen that will probably be used in campaigns leading up to November election (not probably, certainly cause there is nothing else to run if you are member of the ruling party)
      - mullingitover 6mo ago
        I am willing to concede that it would be more financially responsible for the United States to greatly increase the size of the permanent federal workforce, and to stop making its size a political football.
    - partiallypro 6mo ago
      Even assuming what you're saying is correct and government spending doesn't matter (odd thing to say when you're arguing that the government has been "gutted,") your own chart is only flat over time because of USPS workers being less due to automation/retirement and there being less military recruitment (both account for about ~1.5M employees lost,) and doesn't include offloading to contractors. Underlying agencies and government is bigger than ever before. The government (federal AND state levels) itself is much larger, with more regulations, than it was even 20 years ago. Every company has bureaucracy, but it's nothing compared to government work. Also, government has no competition, bureaucracy in big companies will eventually be punished (even if it takes a long time.) In government it is often rewarded, both internally and externally (via regulatory capture, etc.) In any case, saying the federal government has been "gutted" is a flat lie. I don't see how people can argue otherwise. I want more money going to NASA, and more money going to civil projects like HSR, but would that magically remove 15 years of bureaucratic mess? No. More money to these projects can only happen on a large political scale if/when the bureaucratic red tape is cut to lower the costs. Adding an additional layer of bureaucrats and middle managers and pot of gold everyone can dip their hands in before it reaches the final project doesn't fix the issue.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

> we lowered safety standards to just launch Aren’t they still well above anything in the history of human space flight? We keep treating these systems in popular discourse as airliners. They’re not. They’re experimental craft. With mass production maybe SpaceX can bring launch closer to general aviation. But the notion that any loss of life is intolerable is (a) unsustainably expensive and (b) not a view shared by the lives actually at risk.

NetMageSCW 6mo ago
They aren’t in the same magnitude as F9 and Dragon to ISS, so no. I question if they are as safe as the shuttle (final computed risk 1:90).
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > aren’t in the same magnitude as F9 and Dragon to ISS, so no Fair enough. For a heat-shield discussion I guess we should talk about higher-energy missions. But conceded. LEO has normalized safe space travel.

tsunamifury 6mo ago

[flagged]

richwater 6mo ago
Come on man be honest. There were multiple, massive delays with the program related to literally every aspect. You're not engaging seriously.
- tsunamifury 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ToucanLoucan 6mo ago
    I knew The Discourse on this would be toxic and awful and so much of this thread has proved it. My position is I would rather pay for 50 years of Artemis missions that never leave the ground than spend one more fucking dollar attempting to slow the descent of the American empire, or that of its colonies. This was inspiring and amazing to watch. Actual history being made. Competence displayed proudly. No culture war bullshit. No insipid speeches by dullards about REAL AMERICA. Just us doing something because we can, and with plans to do even more.
  - multiplegeorges 6mo ago
    > novel path Reusing Apollo-style stack, reusing Shuttle engines, reusing Shuttle-style SRBs. Novel?
  - dang 6mo ago
    Can you please stop crossing into personal attack and stop breaking the site guidelines generally? You've been doing it repeatedly, unfortunately. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: this is really bad: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435415 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47435396 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47433967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47433967 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47381603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47381603 (March 2026) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47366370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47366370 (March 2026) If you keep this up, we're going to have to ban your account. I don't want to ban you, so it would be good if you'd fix this.

transcriptase 6mo ago

Indeed. The GSA with 10k employees is going to fall apart without the 40k unused winzip licences DOGE so cruelly took away from them in their senseless spree of madness.

permalac 6mo ago
That logic is very short term and while comical isn't close to reality. I hope you live a long and prosper life so you can see the consequences of this presidential term fully unfold.

kowbell 6mo ago

If it's 15 years behind budget and many multiples over budget, it wouldn't be DOGE's fault then?

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
dmix 6mo ago
The main critique of the handling of heat shields also happened at NASA in 2022-2024 and the project continued on. Artemis is largely a product of congress.

ActorNightly 6mo ago

Remember when DOGE tried to cut out the inefficiencies and failed miserably? The "inefficiencies" and "bloated budgets" are there for a reason. If Elon ran this project "without bloat", there is probably a 70% chance that the vehicle would have exploded, much in the way of his Starship and early Falcon vehicles.

NetMageSCW 6mo ago
But that explosion would have cost one tenth the cost a single SLS launch and the next one would go a little further. And eventually you would be flying the most reliable rocket in history more frequently than any other rocket for one tenth the cost of the competition.
- ActorNightly 6mo ago
  This works for getting things to LEO. This doesn't scale well as the distance increases. You can't keep launching shit to the moon, crashing it over and over, until you get it right.