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Apple removes iPhone vibe coding app from app store
- throwaway290 7mo agoiOS developers everywhere: "good" "One more day where I get to use llm to code but still avoid being replaced myself"
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- peddling-brink 7mo agoAs I understand it, these apps allowed running custom code from the app, and that has always been disallowed.
- ramesh31 7mo ago>"and that has always been disallowed". And it's always been a stupid rule. If I ship an app with a browser view, I can run any custom code I want in it. The rule is just a bandaid on Apple's lack of true sandboxing for apps.
- sheept 7mo agoThat's because browsers are the most battle tested sandbox out there. It's not worth developing another sandbox if they already have Safari webview.
- Jyaif 7mo ago> browsers are the most battle tested sandbox out there The most battle tested sandbox... after operating system. After all, browsers rely on the OS to provide the primitives for their sandboxes. And curiously those primitives are not exposed by iOS.
- wvenable 7mo ago> The rule is just a bandaid on Apple's lack of true sandboxing for apps. That's not it at all. If an app can run arbitrary code then it can run other apps and that can by-pass the app store. They are specifically trying to prevent something like Wechat on the iPhone. It's not about security, it's about money and control.
- mciancia 7mo agoWechat works on iPhone
- F7F7F7 7mo agoWechat is large enough to be able to negotiate requirements with Apple. They are the gateway to an entire continent and close to 2 Billion users. And since they are a 'everything app' the frequency of use and reliance is likely compounded. Apple's not picking up the phone for 50 million users. So we shouldn't expect anything different here. Luckily there are other phones and mobile os's to develop for.
- greyface- 7mo agoIf we had to live with this rule during the "classic" Mac era, it would have disallowed HyperCard.
- wat10000 7mo agoWhat's lacking in the sandboxing?
- TSUTiger 7mo agothere are terminal type apps in the app store though?
- circuit10 7mo agoNot sure why this is downvoted, it's true: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ish-shell/id1436902243 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ish-shell/id1436902243 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/a-shell/id1473805438 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/a-shell/id1473805438
- nozzlegear 7mo agoThose are terminal emulators, not actual terminals. You can't fork or exec on iOS/iPadOS, so they're not actually running e.g. a python process, they're just running python interpreter.
- Asmod4n 7mo agoish runs a full blown x86 alpine linux distro.
- jasomill 7mo agoAs I understand it, ish implements x86 instructions and Linux syscalls as functions and translates running programs into arrays of calls to these functions, so all the machine code that will ever run is included in the app bundle, which at least satisfies the rules iOS enforces at runtime. As for the rules as written, I suppose you could make reasonable arguments either way.
- circuit10 7mo agoI don't think it matters if you can fork or exec, they're still running custom code
- vmg12 7mo agoOther than exceptions like Roblox
- echoangle 7mo agoMaybe disallowed but definitely not enforced. There’s an app called Pythonista that has allowed you to run arbitrary python code for years.
- trillic 7mo agoI haven't been in the App Store ecosystem in a while, but the restriction is generally on running new Machine Code, all machine code needs to be signed on iOS. Interpreters get around this limitation, only the interpreter code that is compiled AoT and signed is actually running. This tracks as the reasoning behind a lack of other browser engines, nobody can get comparable performance without a JIT, which would be compiling net new machine code that wasn't shipped with the binary. The best way to handle this I would imagine within the current bounds of Apple's restrictions would be WASM.
- wat10000 7mo agoApps don't get removed for breaking that rule, though, because they can't break it in the first place. The system won't allow you to mark a freshly written page as executable.
- _moof 7mo agoYears ago I watched a bunch of people stop an apartment building from being built. They did this by employing a legal concern that they didn't actually care about, but that they knew would stop the development in its tracks. It worked. That was the day I realized that for a lot of people, rules aren't actually rules. They're tools that they can use to stop something they don't like, no matter what the rule is really about. I think this is a disgusting attitude, but it's unfortunately the way a lot of people operate. So it might be that Apple has this "no external code" rule to stop things they don't like, and the category of "things Apple doesn't like" doesn't actually include every app that runs external code. It includes a lot of them, but for whatever reason Apple chose not to codify the details. Crummy if true, but I wouldn't be surprised. Every regulator I've ever dealt with leaves themselves an "I know it when I see it" escape hatch that lets them ban whatever they want.
- victorbjorklund 7mo agoNot entirely. There is scriptable which allows you to run custom JS
- MarceliusK 7mo ago[dead]
- _alternator_ 7mo agoThe real problem for Apple here: in the fairly near future, the model of pre-defined functionality of software will be obsolete. All apps will be vibe coded and customized. Individual apps will basically be silos that protect proprietary data sources that are difficult to collect. But they will be infinitely more configurable than they are today.
- WarmWash 7mo agoI suspect any minute the first software with integrated AI customization will launch. Geeks will hate it, but regular folks will love trading all those god damn endless settings and menus for a simple prompt bar. In an almost ironic twist, GUI will revert back to a "CLI".
- WillAdams 7mo agoYeah, I've been wondering what this might look like for a 3D printer slicer --- heck, I'd be glad to just have a series of sliders: - aesthetic print quality - dimensional accuracy - strength - ease of removing supports - reliability of printing which resolve to two values which estimate: - print time - volume of material used/consumed in supports
- wolvoleo 7mo agoYeah but not everyone has the same priorities within those sliders. For example strength is something that has many different types. Tensile strength, compression strength, shearing etc. You use different infills to optimise for each type. This differs per model. An AI can surely help optimise it but it won't always know which one to prioritize, it requires knowing exactly what the printed model will be used for. The same with aesthetics, usually you care about one specific side. And for ease of remove, are you willing to use support interface material? That makes a lot of difference.
- _alternator_ 7mo agoI think this comment actually makes the case for highly custom LLM modifications to software. If you have priorities, you express them to the model and let it figure out how to maximize the UI for your needs.
- cadamsdotcom 7mo agoIt’ll be interesting to see if Apple comes around on customization of apps in general, because hopefully that’ll soon be what users expect. In the world where users expect to be able to customize software more and more, apps start to look quite rigid and open platforms like the web that offer flexibility start to look more appealing. Imagine a Lovable-style PWA that morphs into the app you vibecoded by storing the generated code in localStorage, for example - with cloud fallbacks to re-download the code if the storage is wiped.
- sheept 7mo agoIt could probably store the code in the Cache API and serve it from a service worker so that it works offline and doesn't require evaling JavaScript
- namanyayg 7mo agoThat's funny to read this today morning because that's exactly what i've been working on. We helped a Series B YC company with a whitelabel Lovable app so all of their customers can build exactly what they need on top of their SaaS! It really works -- 1200 customers are now vibe coding daily and using their SaaS a LOT more.
- lostlogin 7mo ago> open platforms like the web I winced. The threats to the open web at the moment are depressing.
- szundi 7mo ago[dead]
- ddlsmurf 7mo agoLinux and Windows have always been a lot more customisable, Apple always was the more "we know better than you what you want" company... And they weren't wrong enough
- MarceliusK 7mo ago[dead]
- legitronics 7mo agoWhat does vibe coding add here? How is this any different than just arbitrary code execution on device, which is exactly what this gatekeeper rule covers? (Not commenting on the rule, just want to see what’s new here)
- wvenable 7mo agoThe only thing it changes is the audience. Developers are an insanely small subset of iPhone users but these applications are targeting everyone else.
- mentalgear 7mo agoApple's huge problem here is - even though the get 50% more native app submissions this year - that these apps-in-apps (no matter how buggy they are) do not get them their predatory 30% Apple cut. That being said, it is rumoured that Apple will make deal with the big one like Replit as long as these apps do not run on ios - they are going to keep profiting off that walled garden until it collapses.
- matthewkayin 7mo agoKnow the workplace rules! Steam: We take a 30% cut of profits on our store. Devs: Aww you're so sweet. Apple: We take a 30% cut of profits on our store. Devs: Hello? Human resources?
- wbobeirne 7mo agoI cannot get apps on my iPhone from anywhere else but the App Store. While they are dominant, Valve isn't locking anyone in even on their own hardware.
- pcdoodle 7mo ago[dead]
- vorpalhex 7mo agoSteam doesn't prevent me from running other games on my pc.
- _aavaa_ 7mo agoThis get brought up often, and it’s such a lazy example. Apple forces you to give them their cut (you have to pay for developer license even just to keep your own personal apps on your phone). Valve isn’t forcing you to use Steam.
- AlotOfReading 7mo agoValve's most anticompetitive rule is that steam keys you distribute outside steam shouldn't be sold for less than the price on steam. Would that Apple were the same.
- barbazoo 7mo agoIt's refreshing that projects like https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ exist that let you take control of your device again at least to some degree.
- k310 7mo agoIANAL, but I think it means creating apps that stand alone outside their creator. I have a couple of linux VM's a-shell and iSH, but nothing runs outside of them.
- NotPractical 7mo agoApple's own Swift Playground app does the exact thing that supposedly violates the rules, abusing an inconsistently-applied exception for "educational" apps [1]. Recent regulation doesn't help here, by the way. iOS apps submitted for "notarization" to be distributed in alternative app stores in the EU, Japan, etc. still must comply with a subset of the guidelines, including 2.5.2. EU is probably not interested in strengthening the DMA so that Apple doesn't have to approve everything because then it makes other EU regulations easier to bypass (e.g. Chat Control). Looks like YC wasted their money on this one, unless it's exempt because one of the founders used to work at Apple or something: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45041185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45041185 [1] https://developer.apple.com/swift-playground/ https://developer.apple.com/swift-playground/
- MarceliusK 7mo agoThe "educational" exception is definitely a convenient loophole, but it raises questions about consistency and fairness in how these rules are enforced across the board
- akmarinov 7mo agoInteresting that they’re not ok with that, but are completely fine with plenty of React Native and Flutter apps using OTA to update themselves without going through AppStore review like GM’s apps, Crypto.com and countless others
- MarceliusK 7mo agoAt the end of the day, Apple is justifying this move as rule enforcement, but it's clear that the guidelines seem outdated in the context of rapidly advancing AI tools