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A lot of amazing technology has been invented just for the purpose of killing people. It's nothing new. Humans are monkeys that like to kill other monkeys and n

A lot of amazing technology has been invented just for the purpose of killing people. It's nothing new. Humans are monkeys that like to kill other monkeys and no amount of civilization will change that.

logdu 7mo ago
It certainly won't change with that kind of attitude. Don't you want to live a peaceful life and be free from your baser instincts? I believe most people do, and if they don't, the mission of those who have education and means should be to show the way in that direction, instead of shrugging off the worst things and excusing them on "monkeys", which IMO is insulting to monkeys.
- tornadofart 7mo ago
  The reflex to assign our morally wrong behaviour to the animal part in us is quite ironic. I just don't see jellyfish building concentration camps.
  - altmanaltman 7mo ago
    Yeah they just use their tentacles to catch prey and bring it into their body cavity, where they feed on and defecate out of the same opening. Maybe they don't because they lack the intellect to do so, not because they have any sense of morality.
    - NonHyloMorph 7mo ago
      Well not sure where the disgust for jellyfish is coming from but there isn't really much of a moral argument here. What you are saying is akin to: look you just ate a burger, what's next–the holocaust? (The organisation of the functioning of bodily orifices of the organism isn't really at all relevant for that. One might also add, that in the case of the burger, there might actually be an argument for some structural analogy that depends on the origin of the meat in a process of captivity and killing, that is organized in an industrial fashion..)
      - satvikpendem 7mo ago
        Vegans actually do say that but I get your point, not sure what the parent is getting at either, if jellyfish were to have the intellect and dexterity I still wouldn't see why they'd build camps.
  - kergonath 7mo ago
    It’s a defense mechanism. Something we like to tell to convince ourselves that we are not as bad as they are.
- altmanaltman 7mo ago
  Of course, we all want to live peaceful lives and be free from our baser instincts, but the entire society that allows you to live a "peaceful life" is based on exploitation and war. Just because you don't see it at home doesn't mean you don't profit/benefit from human violence and exploitation. As for my comment on "monkeys": 1. Larger primates like chimpanzees are known predators that hunt and consume smaller monkeys, specifically targeting babies 2. In the famous Gombe Chimpanzee War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War), a once-unified community split into two factions; over four years, one group systematically hunted down and killed every male member of the other. 3. In captive or introduced settings, groups may relentlessly bully "outsiders" who do not know the social norms, preventing them from eating or resting. 4. Non-lactating females may steal an infant from its mother and refuse to give it back, holding it until the baby dies of starvation or dehydration. "Insulting to monkeys" is only an idea when you anthromorphize monkeys from the actual animals they are to something like Rafiki from Lion King. Nothing is insulting to monkeys because they don't understand the meaning of insult or care about it. They're raw animals and so are human beings. If you look at the world around you today and think "yes, this is the result of people wanting to live a peaceful life" then I would say you're not being realistic.
  - defrost 7mo ago
    Chimpanzee behaviour is chimpanzee behaviour. Aspects of that behaviour appear in the behaviour of other primates, but not all primate groups have identical behaviours. Chimpanzee behaviours also vary by troop and circumstances, just as might be expected from social behaviours. Such behaviours _exist_, but they may not in fact be optimal, inevitable, etc. Perhaps chimpanzees behave as they do 'cause the bonobo's didn't invite them to the cool parties.
jhrmnn 7mo ago
I find it sad that while technological progress is seen almost as a given by virtually everyone, moral progress is often not even an aspiration
- janalsncm 7mo ago
  Just to push back a little, I think if the U.S. did now what they did to Germany and Japan in WW2 it would be unconscionable. They are getting a lot of flak for bombing a school. But I think it’s fair to say there were a lot of schools in Dresden and Hiroshima. This isn’t to excuse anything but to say there has been progress even if it’s not as fast as we’d like. As far as the technology angle, the precision we have now and information we have now allow much more narrow targeting, but at the same time allows us to scrutinize military actions more.
  - tovej 7mo ago
    Small correction: there was one very publicized school bombing with a lot of casualties, but there's more than one bombed school. The US and Israel have bombed several schools, hospitals, and civil servants' offices, and residential buildings. I read HRANA's report on the war every morning. [1] It's a quick read, they are a reliable Iranian opposition source (now based in the US). Each day, there are multiple strikes on civilian infrastructure. No matter how precise they are, they are still war crimes. [1] https://www.en-hrana.org/ https://www.en-hrana.org/
    - pbhjpbhj 7mo ago
      Surely it's the precision that makes them war crimes? If the missiles weren't meter-accurate, and the intelligence didn't eg show the lines painted on the playground (even in images available to the public) then they would be able to pass it off as mistakes or enemy propaganda.
      - kergonath 7mo ago
        No, what makes them war crimes is the intentional targeting of non-combattants. Being lousy at aiming weapons does not absolve of any war crime. The accuracy helps with showing intent, though, because when your 50% accuracy radius is a couple of meters and you put a couple of missiles on a target that’s a hundred of meters of anything else, it’s hard to argue they were sidetracked.
miki123211 7mo ago
This is where incentives strike us once again. Unlike in any other pursuit, in war, governments have at least some incentive to be efficient, lest they be outcompeted by the other side. In peacetime science, all they care about is crossing the is, dashing the ts, and making sure that no icky ethics violations are likely to cause a PR scandal and get somebody ousted from their post.
croon 7mo ago
Monkeys don't generally like killing other monkeys though.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]

logdu 7mo ago

It certainly won't change with that kind of attitude. Don't you want to live a peaceful life and be free from your baser instincts? I believe most people do, and if they don't, the mission of those who have education and means should be to show the way in that direction, instead of shrugging off the worst things and excusing them on "monkeys", which IMO is insulting to monkeys.

tornadofart 7mo ago
The reflex to assign our morally wrong behaviour to the animal part in us is quite ironic. I just don't see jellyfish building concentration camps.
- altmanaltman 7mo ago
  Yeah they just use their tentacles to catch prey and bring it into their body cavity, where they feed on and defecate out of the same opening. Maybe they don't because they lack the intellect to do so, not because they have any sense of morality.
  - NonHyloMorph 7mo ago
    Well not sure where the disgust for jellyfish is coming from but there isn't really much of a moral argument here. What you are saying is akin to: look you just ate a burger, what's next–the holocaust? (The organisation of the functioning of bodily orifices of the organism isn't really at all relevant for that. One might also add, that in the case of the burger, there might actually be an argument for some structural analogy that depends on the origin of the meat in a process of captivity and killing, that is organized in an industrial fashion..)
    - satvikpendem 7mo ago
      Vegans actually do say that but I get your point, not sure what the parent is getting at either, if jellyfish were to have the intellect and dexterity I still wouldn't see why they'd build camps.
- kergonath 7mo ago
  It’s a defense mechanism. Something we like to tell to convince ourselves that we are not as bad as they are.
altmanaltman 7mo ago
Of course, we all want to live peaceful lives and be free from our baser instincts, but the entire society that allows you to live a "peaceful life" is based on exploitation and war. Just because you don't see it at home doesn't mean you don't profit/benefit from human violence and exploitation. As for my comment on "monkeys": 1. Larger primates like chimpanzees are known predators that hunt and consume smaller monkeys, specifically targeting babies 2. In the famous Gombe Chimpanzee War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War), a once-unified community split into two factions; over four years, one group systematically hunted down and killed every male member of the other. 3. In captive or introduced settings, groups may relentlessly bully "outsiders" who do not know the social norms, preventing them from eating or resting. 4. Non-lactating females may steal an infant from its mother and refuse to give it back, holding it until the baby dies of starvation or dehydration. "Insulting to monkeys" is only an idea when you anthromorphize monkeys from the actual animals they are to something like Rafiki from Lion King. Nothing is insulting to monkeys because they don't understand the meaning of insult or care about it. They're raw animals and so are human beings. If you look at the world around you today and think "yes, this is the result of people wanting to live a peaceful life" then I would say you're not being realistic.
- defrost 7mo ago
  Chimpanzee behaviour is chimpanzee behaviour. Aspects of that behaviour appear in the behaviour of other primates, but not all primate groups have identical behaviours. Chimpanzee behaviours also vary by troop and circumstances, just as might be expected from social behaviours. Such behaviours _exist_, but they may not in fact be optimal, inevitable, etc. Perhaps chimpanzees behave as they do 'cause the bonobo's didn't invite them to the cool parties.

jhrmnn 7mo ago

I find it sad that while technological progress is seen almost as a given by virtually everyone, moral progress is often not even an aspiration

janalsncm 7mo ago
Just to push back a little, I think if the U.S. did now what they did to Germany and Japan in WW2 it would be unconscionable. They are getting a lot of flak for bombing a school. But I think it’s fair to say there were a lot of schools in Dresden and Hiroshima. This isn’t to excuse anything but to say there has been progress even if it’s not as fast as we’d like. As far as the technology angle, the precision we have now and information we have now allow much more narrow targeting, but at the same time allows us to scrutinize military actions more.
- tovej 7mo ago
  Small correction: there was one very publicized school bombing with a lot of casualties, but there's more than one bombed school. The US and Israel have bombed several schools, hospitals, and civil servants' offices, and residential buildings. I read HRANA's report on the war every morning. [1] It's a quick read, they are a reliable Iranian opposition source (now based in the US). Each day, there are multiple strikes on civilian infrastructure. No matter how precise they are, they are still war crimes. [1] https://www.en-hrana.org/ https://www.en-hrana.org/
  - pbhjpbhj 7mo ago
    Surely it's the precision that makes them war crimes? If the missiles weren't meter-accurate, and the intelligence didn't eg show the lines painted on the playground (even in images available to the public) then they would be able to pass it off as mistakes or enemy propaganda.
    - kergonath 7mo ago
      No, what makes them war crimes is the intentional targeting of non-combattants. Being lousy at aiming weapons does not absolve of any war crime. The accuracy helps with showing intent, though, because when your 50% accuracy radius is a couple of meters and you put a couple of missiles on a target that’s a hundred of meters of anything else, it’s hard to argue they were sidetracked.

miki123211 7mo ago

This is where incentives strike us once again. Unlike in any other pursuit, in war, governments have at least some incentive to be efficient, lest they be outcompeted by the other side. In peacetime science, all they care about is crossing the is, dashing the ts, and making sure that no icky ethics violations are likely to cause a PR scandal and get somebody ousted from their post.

croon 7mo ago

Monkeys don't generally like killing other monkeys though.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]