5 ms·

Who even is the deep state any more? MAGA was sure it was backroom democrats. Project 2025 has provided much of the playbook for this administrations run, and t

Who even is the deep state any more? MAGA was sure it was backroom democrats. Project 2025 has provided much of the playbook for this administrations run, and thats deep red conservative territory. Meanwhile we have an overwhelming body of evidence for market manipulation and extreme profit taking on the war and oil fronts, pointing to politically aligned financiers. I don't think the deep state is any discernible single group, but rather whoever we want to point the finger at on a particular topic.

adventured 7mo ago
The deep state is any agent of meaningful power/influence that works for the government or is very closely entangled with the government, and that retains some or all of their power/influence from one admin to the next. That includes for example powerful figures in the Pentagon or intelligence agencies that remain from one admin to the next. These people all have agendas of their own, and they network as people do. Dick Cheney was a deep state figure across a couple of decades, often working in the shadows. So was Rumsfeld. So was Kissinger across a few decades during his prime power/influence years. They all had long-term agendas, their ideas about the world, and extremely deep connections throughout the Federal Government. It's not a mysterious conspiracy. It's just people with power/influence pursuing outcomes that they'd like to see happen, and working with other like-minded people to get there.
- jmyeet 7mo ago
  There is this building where guys wearing masks wheel you into a room behind locked doors at dawn and then use drugs to knock you out. They then take sharp knives and cut you open and rummage around your insides, sometimes taking organs out. Blood goes everywhere. The footage is gory. When they're done with you it may takes you weeks to recover. The rest of just call his "surgery at a hospital". My point is that you've just described in nefarious terms the "civil service" or the "administrative state". Every government department is full of career civil servants who will go through many administrations. Only the very top officials in any department are political appointees. We're talking the secretary, their deputies and some positions under those. Government simply cannot function without career civil servants who end up becoming subject matter experts in what they're administering. Or, you know, you can nerfariously say "deep state".
  - pandaman 7mo ago
    Calling it "civil service" instead of "deep state" does not make it any better. We don't have either in the Constitution so whatever you call it, it has to be removed from power.
    - AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
      And then what? The spoils system? Rampant incompetence? And, we have to get rid of it because it's not in the Constitution? You know what else isn't in the Constitution? DHS. The IRS. ICE. An enormous number of other agencies. The Constitution gives very little guidance on the Executive Branch, other than the President and Vice President. That does not mean that hiring people in federal agencies is unconstitutional! It just means that the Constitution is silent on the topic, neither requiring nor prohibiting very much.
      - pandaman 7mo ago
        Then back to the system defined in the Constitution, it gives enough guidance. If you think the President is not enough for the Executive - amend the Constitution, used to be enough for ~200 years though.
        AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
        The Constitution does not define a civil service system. You seem to interpret that as saying that any system is unconstitutional until the Constitution is amended to define one. That is... let's just call it "very much a minority interpretation". We are not going to either amend the Constitution nor abolish the civil service just because some pseudonymous online account says we should.
        pandaman 7mo ago
        The Constitution defines just three branches of power, if the "civil service system" has a power and is not one of the branches then it unconstitutional by common sense and elementary logic. And this "civil servant system" evidentially has power and is not a part of either of the three branches (which are all enumerated in the Constitution) ergo it's an unconstitutional junta. >We are not going to either amend the Constitution nor abolish the civil service just because some pseudonymous online account says we should. Did not you participate in the mass crying out on this very site when DOGE had been firing the "civil servants"?
- cosmicgadget 7mo ago
  You're thinking of the "monoparty/uniparty". The deep state (at least since 2016) is people who work for the federal government as a career. Because statecraft isn't gig work.
gspetr 7mo ago
> Who even is the deep state any more? The same thing it's always been: The military-industrial complex. > MAGA was sure it was backroom democrats. It's not that hard to distinguish "them", just look at how fast the mainstream media threw Biden under the bus over Afghanistan withdrawal. 1)POTUS orders the withdrawal. 2)Generals botch the withdrawal on purpose. 3)Mainstream media (left and right) eviscerates the POTUS. This sends a strong message to this POTUS, as well as any subsequent Presidents: "Don't mess with the profits of the complex or else." This was the tipping point for me when I realized that the deep state is not a just a bogeyman conjured up by the right wingers. Should you cross the complex, it will just as easily come for you even if you're a Democrat that's been in politics for 50 years. Finally, the Atlantic is as establishment as it gets. No matter which party is in power, their editorial board serves the ruling class, of which almost nobody on HN is a part of. Whether their interests align with yours or not you can ascertain just by looking at approval ratings of the US Congress.
- thisisit 7mo ago
  It was Trump who made that deal to withdraw from Afghanistan by May 2021. Biden as POTUS followed through with some delays. So, what was this about not being a bogeyman being conjured by right again?
atmavatar 7mo ago
The deep state is and always has been the ultra-wealthy. Rampant, uncontrolled consolidation of media, PACs, lobbying, and granting cushy jobs to retired congresspeople all give the wealthiest individuals extremely outsized control over what happens in the US government.
- progmetaldev 7mo ago
  I think the problem is that the "deep state" really came into public consciousness with Trump, on his first run. While I agree with your definition of the deep state, that is not what most people think of in current days, and Trump is probably the deepest of deep state you can legally be. He ran against the deep state, while being deeply embedded inside it. It was just easier to pass off because he wasn't a politician (at least from an American point of view, not sure of your country of origin).
  - alfiedotwtf 7mo ago
    It’s just funny he ran on releasing all of the Epstein Files, didn’t, and when we caught a glimpse of a slither of it, it turned out he was in there so much it could have been renamed the Trump Files

adventured 7mo ago

The deep state is any agent of meaningful power/influence that works for the government or is very closely entangled with the government, and that retains some or all of their power/influence from one admin to the next. That includes for example powerful figures in the Pentagon or intelligence agencies that remain from one admin to the next. These people all have agendas of their own, and they network as people do. Dick Cheney was a deep state figure across a couple of decades, often working in the shadows. So was Rumsfeld. So was Kissinger across a few decades during his prime power/influence years. They all had long-term agendas, their ideas about the world, and extremely deep connections throughout the Federal Government. It's not a mysterious conspiracy. It's just people with power/influence pursuing outcomes that they'd like to see happen, and working with other like-minded people to get there.

jmyeet 7mo ago
There is this building where guys wearing masks wheel you into a room behind locked doors at dawn and then use drugs to knock you out. They then take sharp knives and cut you open and rummage around your insides, sometimes taking organs out. Blood goes everywhere. The footage is gory. When they're done with you it may takes you weeks to recover. The rest of just call his "surgery at a hospital". My point is that you've just described in nefarious terms the "civil service" or the "administrative state". Every government department is full of career civil servants who will go through many administrations. Only the very top officials in any department are political appointees. We're talking the secretary, their deputies and some positions under those. Government simply cannot function without career civil servants who end up becoming subject matter experts in what they're administering. Or, you know, you can nerfariously say "deep state".
- pandaman 7mo ago
  Calling it "civil service" instead of "deep state" does not make it any better. We don't have either in the Constitution so whatever you call it, it has to be removed from power.
  - AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
    And then what? The spoils system? Rampant incompetence? And, we have to get rid of it because it's not in the Constitution? You know what else isn't in the Constitution? DHS. The IRS. ICE. An enormous number of other agencies. The Constitution gives very little guidance on the Executive Branch, other than the President and Vice President. That does not mean that hiring people in federal agencies is unconstitutional! It just means that the Constitution is silent on the topic, neither requiring nor prohibiting very much.
    - pandaman 7mo ago
      Then back to the system defined in the Constitution, it gives enough guidance. If you think the President is not enough for the Executive - amend the Constitution, used to be enough for ~200 years though.
      - AnimalMuppet 7mo ago
        The Constitution does not define a civil service system. You seem to interpret that as saying that any system is unconstitutional until the Constitution is amended to define one. That is... let's just call it "very much a minority interpretation". We are not going to either amend the Constitution nor abolish the civil service just because some pseudonymous online account says we should.
        pandaman 7mo ago
        The Constitution defines just three branches of power, if the "civil service system" has a power and is not one of the branches then it unconstitutional by common sense and elementary logic. And this "civil servant system" evidentially has power and is not a part of either of the three branches (which are all enumerated in the Constitution) ergo it's an unconstitutional junta. >We are not going to either amend the Constitution nor abolish the civil service just because some pseudonymous online account says we should. Did not you participate in the mass crying out on this very site when DOGE had been firing the "civil servants"?
cosmicgadget 7mo ago
You're thinking of the "monoparty/uniparty". The deep state (at least since 2016) is people who work for the federal government as a career. Because statecraft isn't gig work.

gspetr 7mo ago

> Who even is the deep state any more? The same thing it's always been: The military-industrial complex. > MAGA was sure it was backroom democrats. It's not that hard to distinguish "them", just look at how fast the mainstream media threw Biden under the bus over Afghanistan withdrawal. 1)POTUS orders the withdrawal. 2)Generals botch the withdrawal on purpose. 3)Mainstream media (left and right) eviscerates the POTUS. This sends a strong message to this POTUS, as well as any subsequent Presidents: "Don't mess with the profits of the complex or else." This was the tipping point for me when I realized that the deep state is not a just a bogeyman conjured up by the right wingers. Should you cross the complex, it will just as easily come for you even if you're a Democrat that's been in politics for 50 years. Finally, the Atlantic is as establishment as it gets. No matter which party is in power, their editorial board serves the ruling class, of which almost nobody on HN is a part of. Whether their interests align with yours or not you can ascertain just by looking at approval ratings of the US Congress.

thisisit 7mo ago
It was Trump who made that deal to withdraw from Afghanistan by May 2021. Biden as POTUS followed through with some delays. So, what was this about not being a bogeyman being conjured by right again?

atmavatar 7mo ago

The deep state is and always has been the ultra-wealthy. Rampant, uncontrolled consolidation of media, PACs, lobbying, and granting cushy jobs to retired congresspeople all give the wealthiest individuals extremely outsized control over what happens in the US government.

progmetaldev 7mo ago
I think the problem is that the "deep state" really came into public consciousness with Trump, on his first run. While I agree with your definition of the deep state, that is not what most people think of in current days, and Trump is probably the deepest of deep state you can legally be. He ran against the deep state, while being deeply embedded inside it. It was just easier to pass off because he wasn't a politician (at least from an American point of view, not sure of your country of origin).
- alfiedotwtf 7mo ago
  It’s just funny he ran on releasing all of the Epstein Files, didn’t, and when we caught a glimpse of a slither of it, it turned out he was in there so much it could have been renamed the Trump Files