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This was an enjoyable read. It seems Buddhism has followed the same path as any other religion/practice of the same age. I imagine that today's Christianity d

by mvkel 7mo ago

This was an enjoyable read. It seems Buddhism has followed the same path as any other religion/practice of the same age. I imagine that today's Christianity doesn't look much like it did in 500AD, just as I imagine Scientology in 1,000 years will have evolved. Is this a bad thing? Does religion not represent our perception of the meaning of life, evolving with us as knowledge, wisdom and tolerance (or lack thereof) is passed through the generations?

_fw 7mo ago
The teachings of the Buddha explicitly encouraged it. Buddhism is the only religion I know of that instructs you to fully abandon it, as once you’ve fully grokked what it has to teach… you won’t need it any more. IIRC the Buddha said it was like carrying the oar of a boat: once you have used it to get you to your destination (nibbhana), carrying it is needless.
- gavmor 7mo ago
  > Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso mahato udakassa ... ‘yan-nūnāhaṃ tiṇakaṭṭhapaṇṇaṃ saṅkhaṇiyaṃ saṅkhaṇeyyaṃ, tenañ-ca mahaudakaṃ abhinaveyyaṃ hatthipādena vā aṅgapādena vā ... Atha kho so puriso taṃ kulhiraṃ āropetvā pāre gaccheyya. Tam-enaṃ loko ‘kiṃsu, bho, karissati kulhirena pāraṃ gato’ti? Evaṃ, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desitaṃ ājānāsi: ‘pāraṅgamanaṃ dhammaṃ, anupagamma dhamma’ti. > सेय्यथापि भिक्खवे पुरिसो महतो उदकस्स ओरिमतटे ठितो एतस्मिं चत्ते ओरिमा तटा कल्लंणं भयंवरं, परमा तटा निब्बयं भयंविरं, न च नावाय संयताय न च पुल्लेन गन्तब्बं। तं किमन्तरेन। यन्नुनाहं तिणकट्ठपण्णं संकलिय च मज्झे उदकं अभिनवेन्तं हत्थिपदेन व अङ्गपदेन व तीरणं करोमि। अथ खो सो पुरिसो तिणकट्ठपण्णं संकलिय च मज्झे उदकं अभिनवेन्तो हत्थिपदेन व अङ्गपदेन व तीरणं करोति। तं पच्छा समन्ततो गन्त्वा पारे गच्छति। तं एं लोको किं नु खो करिस्सति कूल्हिरेन पारा गतो ती? एवमेव खो भिक्खवे धम्मो देशितो अजानासि। पारं गमनेन धम्मं नुपगम्म धम्मं। Alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22) of the Majjhima Nikāya, part of the Pali Canon. (MN 22, सेय्यथापि... से अंतまで)
  - wise_blood 7mo ago
    https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain...
- hmm37 7mo ago
  Very similar to Zhuangzi (Daoism). 荃者所以在魚，得魚而忘荃蹄者所以在兔，得兔而忘蹄言者所以在意，得意而忘言吾安得忘言之人而與之言哉？ The fish trap exists because of the fish; once you've gotten the fish, you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit; once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word with him?
  - _fw 7mo ago
    I love this! Thank you.
dijksterhuis 7mo ago
i really like that shunryū suzuki quoting dogen talking about "one continuous mistake" is a complete and utter misquote. internalised understanding, attitudes, views etc. are more important that being able to recite things from a book.
snayan 7mo ago
It depends on the root of the evolution I would say. Sure, if someone has gone through the process and achieved enlightenment like Buddha, they may be able to evolve the teachings to better fit the times. However, my gut says that is often not the case, and much of the evolution is egoic in nature at the hands of a charismatic individual who wants to fulfil their desire or lust for power. I'm far from an expert on Buddhism, but my own journey has taught me that ultimately we must kill our Buddhas and inner realization ultimately is a journey you must walk alone and discover for yourself. The teachers along the way may serve as wayfinding, but must ultimately be discarded. If the evolved state of the religion seems like a big club, and isn't serving it's members to strike out on their own on their inward journey, to achieve independence and sovereignty, it should be questioned in my opinion.
graemep 7mo ago
> I imagine that today's Christianity doesn't look much like it did in 500AD I would would say it does look pretty similar. The Council of Nicea nearly 200 years earlier had established a consensus/mainstream theology. The papacy existed, although it did not claim the same level of authority. Even churches were built in styles similar to modern ones. > Is this a bad thing? Does religion not represent our perception of the meaning of life, evolving with us as knowledge, wisdom and tolerance (or lack thereof) is passed through the generations? In principle it is not a bad thing, but it is a matter of opinion. Christianity and Buddhism are both revealed religions so losing the truths the founder of the religion taught is a bad thing, learning more is a good thing. Which is which is a matter of opinion.

by mvkel 7mo ago

_fw 7mo ago

The teachings of the Buddha explicitly encouraged it. Buddhism is the only religion I know of that instructs you to fully abandon it, as once you’ve fully grokked what it has to teach… you won’t need it any more. IIRC the Buddha said it was like carrying the oar of a boat: once you have used it to get you to your destination (nibbhana), carrying it is needless.

gavmor 7mo ago
> Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso mahato udakassa ... ‘yan-nūnāhaṃ tiṇakaṭṭhapaṇṇaṃ saṅkhaṇiyaṃ saṅkhaṇeyyaṃ, tenañ-ca mahaudakaṃ abhinaveyyaṃ hatthipādena vā aṅgapādena vā ... Atha kho so puriso taṃ kulhiraṃ āropetvā pāre gaccheyya. Tam-enaṃ loko ‘kiṃsu, bho, karissati kulhirena pāraṃ gato’ti? Evaṃ, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desitaṃ ājānāsi: ‘pāraṅgamanaṃ dhammaṃ, anupagamma dhamma’ti. > सेय्यथापि भिक्खवे पुरिसो महतो उदकस्स ओरिमतटे ठितो एतस्मिं चत्ते ओरिमा तटा कल्लंणं भयंवरं, परमा तटा निब्बयं भयंविरं, न च नावाय संयताय न च पुल्लेन गन्तब्बं। तं किमन्तरेन। यन्नुनाहं तिणकट्ठपण्णं संकलिय च मज्झे उदकं अभिनवेन्तं हत्थिपदेन व अङ्गपदेन व तीरणं करोमि। अथ खो सो पुरिसो तिणकट्ठपण्णं संकलिय च मज्झे उदकं अभिनवेन्तो हत्थिपदेन व अङ्गपदेन व तीरणं करोति। तं पच्छा समन्ततो गन्त्वा पारे गच्छति। तं एं लोको किं नु खो करिस्सति कूल्हिरेन पारा गतो ती? एवमेव खो भिक्खवे धम्मो देशितो अजानासि। पारं गमनेन धम्मं नुपगम्म धम्मं। Alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22) of the Majjhima Nikāya, part of the Pali Canon. (MN 22, सेय्यथापि... से अंतまで)
- wise_blood 7mo ago
  https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain...
hmm37 7mo ago
Very similar to Zhuangzi (Daoism). 荃者所以在魚，得魚而忘荃蹄者所以在兔，得兔而忘蹄言者所以在意，得意而忘言吾安得忘言之人而與之言哉？ The fish trap exists because of the fish; once you've gotten the fish, you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit; once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word with him?
- _fw 7mo ago
  I love this! Thank you.

dijksterhuis 7mo ago

i really like that shunryū suzuki quoting dogen talking about "one continuous mistake" is a complete and utter misquote. internalised understanding, attitudes, views etc. are more important that being able to recite things from a book.

snayan 7mo ago

It depends on the root of the evolution I would say. Sure, if someone has gone through the process and achieved enlightenment like Buddha, they may be able to evolve the teachings to better fit the times. However, my gut says that is often not the case, and much of the evolution is egoic in nature at the hands of a charismatic individual who wants to fulfil their desire or lust for power. I'm far from an expert on Buddhism, but my own journey has taught me that ultimately we must kill our Buddhas and inner realization ultimately is a journey you must walk alone and discover for yourself. The teachers along the way may serve as wayfinding, but must ultimately be discarded. If the evolved state of the religion seems like a big club, and isn't serving it's members to strike out on their own on their inward journey, to achieve independence and sovereignty, it should be questioned in my opinion.

graemep 7mo ago

> I imagine that today's Christianity doesn't look much like it did in 500AD I would would say it does look pretty similar. The Council of Nicea nearly 200 years earlier had established a consensus/mainstream theology. The papacy existed, although it did not claim the same level of authority. Even churches were built in styles similar to modern ones. > Is this a bad thing? Does religion not represent our perception of the meaning of life, evolving with us as knowledge, wisdom and tolerance (or lack thereof) is passed through the generations? In principle it is not a bad thing, but it is a matter of opinion. Christianity and Buddhism are both revealed religions so losing the truths the founder of the religion taught is a bad thing, learning more is a good thing. Which is which is a matter of opinion.