5 ms·

The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux. Until product people start getting involved, it's damned to it's eternal ~5%

The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux. Until product people start getting involved, it's damned to it's eternal ~5% consumer market penetration.

user432678 7mo ago
I actually hope “product people” won’t be involved as long as possible. “Product people” is mostly a reason of our current state of enshitification of most of the products. I would actually try my best to gatekeep.
- Tostino 7mo ago
  You really think it's product people pushing enshitification rather than the people who want to financialize every aspect of our lives? Every product person I have worked with was just a SME in their domain, and pushed for a cohesive piece of software that solved their (users) needs.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- voxl 7mo ago
  "Product people" have long been involved, it's called Ubuntu and SteamOS. Do we think these companies aren't selling anything??
  - mikkupikku 7mo ago
    Ubuntu is a good example of why you don't let "product people" near the thing, Ubuntu is not even remotely the most noob appropriate distro but costs on marketting. As for SteamOS, Valve does many things which everybody else fails at, so they're not a good model for typical outcomes.
tim-projects 7mo ago
> The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux. I think I'd probably say that the problem with Windows is it's made and maintained by people who own macbooks.
- smithcoin 7mo ago
  I am convinced that nobody at Microslop uses any of their products.
tosti 7mo ago
Which isn't really a problem because that doesn't stop anyone from installing it. Next year could be 6%, the year after that 7%... That's quite a lot!
miyoji 7mo ago
The problem with Windows and MacOS is that they are hostile to the user, and that's because they serve a "product" manager who is trying to maximize business value for a massive corporation, not serve you a good OS. We don't need three garbage corporate operating systems mismanaged by MBAs, we already have two!
- Arainach 7mo ago
  Windows is arguably philosophically user-hostile. Anyone who's ever tried to get support online with a question about Linux will quickly meet *actual* user hostility as they're asked why they didn't know to check for the config file in the filing cabinet in the basement behind a locked door saying beware of leopard, how dumb they are, etc.
  - tapia 7mo ago
    Not my experience at least. You can go to the forum of archlinux and see the replies. They tend to be quite useful and in a good tone.
    - Arainach 7mo ago
      Within the last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47463982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47463982 "But, a Raspberry Pi isn't supposed to be a replacement for your desktop; it is meant as a device for experimentation." "why couldn't you read the self-contradicting docs and pick the right option?" (paraphrased) "just because you don't know how to follow the instructions, doesn't make the OS bad." " By now, you should see that years of experience != knowing how to use things." "Yeah. Maybe just stop using Linux. You'll never be happy with it anyway. Most its-never-my-fault people aren't." This has been my experience with the Linux community for 26 years.
      - mikkupikku 7mo ago
        Half those aren't even remotely harsh. Saying the raspberry pi wasn't designed to be mained is totally reasonable, what possible objection do you have to somebody saying that?
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
imoreno 7mo ago
That's how it has to be. Volunteer community doesn't have the bandwidth to make everything maximally user friendly. Users have to do their share too, by accepting the responsibility to learn about their system. Otherwise the model isn't feasible. If you want an appliance experience where you have zero responsibility as a user, you can go to the commercial vendor, but they will also have power over you and abuse it. Linux is indeed for people who can love linux. For people who don't like computers, there's basically no solution.
- WarmWash 7mo ago
  >there's basically no solution Windows, MacOS, Android, iOS. Ironically, 3 of the 4 are unix based with product people in the loop. Linux can work as the savior of computer users, but it's not going to happen with a bunch of people who fetishize using a computer like trinity in the matrix.
phendrenad2 7mo ago
> The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux To specialize that statement a bit, Linux is made and maintained by people who showed up and contributed. These two facts create a vicious cycle. The people show up to add things they love to Linux, and Linux becomes something that only those exact people love. We're deep into this spiral where Linux has become specialized for ultra-nerds who enjoy solving puzzles to get their wifi to work. If you look at old Linux magazines, the community is completely different. People were focused on "beating Microsoft" and democratizing computing. The people who took those goals seriously have left the scene.
- mikkupikku 7mo ago
  The people who take that goal seriously get burned when, having persuaded a normie to install Linux, they realize they just volunteered to provide free tech support to that person until whenever time they give up and buy a Mac.
  - MrDrMcCoy 7mo ago
    The last two people I handed Linux to were not tech literate. I offered them tech support from the beginning. They have been happy users for well over a year now that have not once called me for help. The story for normie Linux use really is pretty good now.
  - phendrenad2 7mo ago
    A few people installing Linux on their friend's PCs is nothing. They can check their email, do their taxes, and play games from their iPad. It's an illusion of accomplishment. The entire Linux community, including people who actually build things, used to be focused on making Linux usable by EVERY class of user, including engineers, doctors, and lawyers.
skipants 7mo ago
I think that's a fair criticism for issues where Linux devs might be blind to the friction a lot of Linux distros come with, but I don't think it's universal for all devs and for all features, all the time. Personally, although I'm not a Linux maintainer, I am a dev and I love doing work that makes UX better for everyone.
- SV_BubbleTime 7mo ago
  Yeah, I could agree to that. If I could wave a wand, I would reduce the number of Linux distributions down to 10 and absolutely no more. It is a ridiculous waste to have this many duplications of work and bugs, along with the lack of collaboration.
yoyohello13 7mo ago
Frankly, I hope Linux keeps the product people out. Product people always turn what they touch to shit. It’s the product people who made Windows the ad ridden mess it is today.
neop1x 7mo ago
No, the problem is that windows is in schools and come pre-installed with majority of computers. Another problem is kernel-level anti-cheats mentioned earlier.

The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux. Until product people start getting involved, it's damned to it's eternal ~5% consumer market penetration.

user432678 7mo ago

I actually hope “product people” won’t be involved as long as possible. “Product people” is mostly a reason of our current state of enshitification of most of the products. I would actually try my best to gatekeep.

Tostino 7mo ago
You really think it's product people pushing enshitification rather than the people who want to financialize every aspect of our lives? Every product person I have worked with was just a SME in their domain, and pushed for a cohesive piece of software that solved their (users) needs.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
voxl 7mo ago
"Product people" have long been involved, it's called Ubuntu and SteamOS. Do we think these companies aren't selling anything??
- mikkupikku 7mo ago
  Ubuntu is a good example of why you don't let "product people" near the thing, Ubuntu is not even remotely the most noob appropriate distro but costs on marketting. As for SteamOS, Valve does many things which everybody else fails at, so they're not a good model for typical outcomes.

tim-projects 7mo ago

> The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux. I think I'd probably say that the problem with Windows is it's made and maintained by people who own macbooks.

smithcoin 7mo ago
I am convinced that nobody at Microslop uses any of their products.

tosti 7mo ago

Which isn't really a problem because that doesn't stop anyone from installing it. Next year could be 6%, the year after that 7%... That's quite a lot!

miyoji 7mo ago

The problem with Windows and MacOS is that they are hostile to the user, and that's because they serve a "product" manager who is trying to maximize business value for a massive corporation, not serve you a good OS. We don't need three garbage corporate operating systems mismanaged by MBAs, we already have two!

Arainach 7mo ago
Windows is arguably philosophically user-hostile. Anyone who's ever tried to get support online with a question about Linux will quickly meet *actual* user hostility as they're asked why they didn't know to check for the config file in the filing cabinet in the basement behind a locked door saying beware of leopard, how dumb they are, etc.
- tapia 7mo ago
  Not my experience at least. You can go to the forum of archlinux and see the replies. They tend to be quite useful and in a good tone.
  - Arainach 7mo ago
    Within the last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47463982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47463982 "But, a Raspberry Pi isn't supposed to be a replacement for your desktop; it is meant as a device for experimentation." "why couldn't you read the self-contradicting docs and pick the right option?" (paraphrased) "just because you don't know how to follow the instructions, doesn't make the OS bad." " By now, you should see that years of experience != knowing how to use things." "Yeah. Maybe just stop using Linux. You'll never be happy with it anyway. Most its-never-my-fault people aren't." This has been my experience with the Linux community for 26 years.
    - mikkupikku 7mo ago
      Half those aren't even remotely harsh. Saying the raspberry pi wasn't designed to be mained is totally reasonable, what possible objection do you have to somebody saying that?

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

imoreno 7mo ago

That's how it has to be. Volunteer community doesn't have the bandwidth to make everything maximally user friendly. Users have to do their share too, by accepting the responsibility to learn about their system. Otherwise the model isn't feasible. If you want an appliance experience where you have zero responsibility as a user, you can go to the commercial vendor, but they will also have power over you and abuse it. Linux is indeed for people who can love linux. For people who don't like computers, there's basically no solution.

WarmWash 7mo ago
>there's basically no solution Windows, MacOS, Android, iOS. Ironically, 3 of the 4 are unix based with product people in the loop. Linux can work as the savior of computer users, but it's not going to happen with a bunch of people who fetishize using a computer like trinity in the matrix.

phendrenad2 7mo ago

> The problem with linux is that it is made and maintained by people who love linux To specialize that statement a bit, Linux is made and maintained by people who showed up and contributed. These two facts create a vicious cycle. The people show up to add things they love to Linux, and Linux becomes something that only those exact people love. We're deep into this spiral where Linux has become specialized for ultra-nerds who enjoy solving puzzles to get their wifi to work. If you look at old Linux magazines, the community is completely different. People were focused on "beating Microsoft" and democratizing computing. The people who took those goals seriously have left the scene.

mikkupikku 7mo ago
The people who take that goal seriously get burned when, having persuaded a normie to install Linux, they realize they just volunteered to provide free tech support to that person until whenever time they give up and buy a Mac.
- MrDrMcCoy 7mo ago
  The last two people I handed Linux to were not tech literate. I offered them tech support from the beginning. They have been happy users for well over a year now that have not once called me for help. The story for normie Linux use really is pretty good now.
- phendrenad2 7mo ago
  A few people installing Linux on their friend's PCs is nothing. They can check their email, do their taxes, and play games from their iPad. It's an illusion of accomplishment. The entire Linux community, including people who actually build things, used to be focused on making Linux usable by EVERY class of user, including engineers, doctors, and lawyers.

skipants 7mo ago

I think that's a fair criticism for issues where Linux devs might be blind to the friction a lot of Linux distros come with, but I don't think it's universal for all devs and for all features, all the time. Personally, although I'm not a Linux maintainer, I am a dev and I love doing work that makes UX better for everyone.

SV_BubbleTime 7mo ago
Yeah, I could agree to that. If I could wave a wand, I would reduce the number of Linux distributions down to 10 and absolutely no more. It is a ridiculous waste to have this many duplications of work and bugs, along with the lack of collaboration.

yoyohello13 7mo ago

Frankly, I hope Linux keeps the product people out. Product people always turn what they touch to shit. It’s the product people who made Windows the ad ridden mess it is today.

neop1x 7mo ago

No, the problem is that windows is in schools and come pre-installed with majority of computers. Another problem is kernel-level anti-cheats mentioned earlier.