5 ms·

Serious question: why is this not a problem with apple products?

by throwa356262 7mo ago

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
kstrauser 7mo ago
How do you mean?
- Supermancho 7mo ago
  people remember creating an Apple Account login and using it on their laptop, but don't understand that it's connected in fundamentally different ways. The answer is: Because the Apple Login is not calling out for every service, including login.
  - kstrauser 7mo ago
    I also think that's what they meant. Alternatively, the person could've been asking why Apple hasn't made the same boneheaded mistake as MS. I wasn't sure how to interpret their question to know how to answer it.
Jare 7mo ago
I don't recall macos forcing it. They definitely over-suggest it and the ecosystem (especially for dev) is very full of it and I consider that a problem, but it's limited in scope. If you don't want the Apple ecosystem, as far as I know you never need an AppleID.
- nananana9 7mo ago
  I had to make one to download Xcode from the store. I couldn' figure out a way around it, but admittedly I have about 4 hours of macos experience.
  - Jare 7mo ago
    Yes, I was bunching up Xcode with "Apple ecosystem". I presume you can get clang/gcc without AppleID (but haven't actually done it myself), and for sure many other dev tools. I'd definitely much prefer if even for "ecosystem" the companies would not require online account except where truly necessary (purchases?), but for operating the OS itself, I do feel there's a line in the sand where online account requirement = no.
    - my123 7mo ago
      Xcode needs an Apple ID for download but the macOS SDK and toolchain does not. Try to run any developer tool or "xcode-select install" and it'll download the command-line tools independently from Xcode. (and then bring your own IDE)
  - yearolinuxdsktp 7mo ago
    It’s impossible to install XCode without an Apple account. It’s only distributed through the Mac App Store, and downloads from Mac App Store require an Apple ID. And even XCode beta downloads are locked behind an Apple login. You can install XCode CLI dev tools without an Apple account, which comes with clang and swift for example. With this, you can build most Mac software, but I don’t think you can run Swift tests without a full XCode. As the sibling comment notes, you can install GCC/llvm and whatever other open source tools and build Mac software without full XCode. You can also install Apple container support without an Apple account.
    - zadikian 7mo ago
      Xcode is also available as a standalone download from developer.apple.com, which requires an account too, but at least it's way more reliable than downloading from the store.
      - phist_mcgee 7mo ago
        To add to it too, they only gate the download behind developer.apple.com or the app store. But the .app file doesn't phone home when installing
ubermonkey 7mo ago
The key difference is that you do not need an Apple account to use a Mac. Most people DO use one, though, because that's how you access the iCloud services that underpin the Apple ecosystem. But it's not MANDATORY. My understanding is that you cannot even log into a Windows machine without an MSFT account. That's a big difference.
- KaiMagnus 7mo ago
  Also people probably have more of a problem with MS accounts because they don’t really have an ecosystem that provides clear value. An Apple account together with an iPhone and MacBook let’s you share clipboard, passwords, notes etc., a no brainer. Windows laptop and iPhone? I guess an Apple account still is more useful here too, actually. So the average user does not really need an MS account, hence the annoyance.
  - spogbiper 7mo ago
    If you own more than one computer, the microsoft account syncs your desktop contents and other parts of the environment.. desktop background is one I've noticed. That can be nice
- spogbiper 7mo ago
  You certainly can log into a Windows machine without a microsoft account. It's actually still quite common in businesses that you log in with an account managed by your organization, although this is changing as more and more businesses migrate to MS Entra ID. This still isn't exactly a "microsoft account" but its similar. You can also still log in with a completely local account as well. It takes a few extra minutes to set up but once configured it works fine. The system is full of dark patterns and roadblocks that steer users towards an MS account, but you don't have to use one.
taeric 7mo ago
Fundamentally, I think you are driving at a legitimate complaint and it should be a concern with Apple products. The direct answer, though, is largely one of execution. Microsoft isn't just pushing this heavily. They are doing so poorly.
- zadikian 7mo ago
  Mac doesn't require an Apple ID to use. iPhone only needs one for installing apps, and my only complaint is it's the strictest auth check on the entire phone besides disabling the account. Shouldn't need to input the Apple ID password just to install a free app, shouldn't even ask for passcode.
  - taeric 7mo ago
    Setting up an iPad was rather obnoxious on this front, though. So, fundamentally, it is still very similar.
  - fsflover 7mo ago
    > iPhone only needs one for installing apps So you can't have Firefox, Organic Maps, good ad blocker, popular chat and video apps and numerous other things without it. Do you consider that normal?
    - zadikian 7mo ago
      Yes. Considering that Apple created the smartphone as we know it, and it had this limitation from the start, seems normal even though I don't really like it. This wouldn't be acceptable on a PC or tablet (hence why iPads suck).
  - debazel 7mo ago
    An iPhone without an Apple account is about as useful as brick because you can't load your own software onto it without the store.
    - zadikian 7mo ago
dpark 7mo ago
Apple does not tie the local account to the cloud account the same way. On a Mac you create a local account and you can (and almost certainly will) create a cloud account to link to it. But they are separate accounts. In fact I’m pretty sure Apple blocks you from setting the passwords the same on both, presumably with the intent of reminding you that they are not the same entity.
- SirMaster 7mo ago
  But what about our phones? Why are people so OK with an online account for their phone or tablet but not laptop?
  - dpark 7mo ago
    I don’t entirely know. It’s not something that especially bothers me. I will say that I think the forced linking has encouraged other unpleasant behavior like the profile folder hijacking to OneDrive. I rather like having this stuff in OneDrive. I do not like that it is pushed so aggressively. “We moved all your stuff to OneDrive. You need to subscribe so we don’t delete it.” This feels hostile. So some of the distaste with logins tied to the cloud is probably more about the surrounding ecosystem.
  - voxl 7mo ago
    How would the answer to this question illuminate your understanding? People using windows at their job also don't care. "Caring" does not need to be consistent across a group of people.
    - dpark 7mo ago
      What kind of answer is this? This seems condescending and literally provides no answer. Why even post this?
      - voxl 7mo ago
        You read what you want into the message, but have you considered turning your own perspective onto your own post?
wvenable 7mo ago
Apple is a hardware company -- their software exists to support their hardware. Microsoft is a cloud provider now -- their software exists to support their cloud business.
pier25 7mo ago
you can totally use macOS without an Apple account
dmitrygr 7mo ago
No apple product REQUIRES an iCloud account. I have an iphone without one and a mac without one
- gib444 7mo ago
  > No apple product REQUIRES an iCloud account Except an iPhone and iPad,to install apps people want and need. The number of people who use an iPhone without apps can be rounded down to 0
Krssst 7mo ago
People that don't want to use Apple products are not forced to do so. They can use Android (which has alternative stores, at least for the time being). Though I guess almost everyone logs in anyaway. Generally both major OS have good support from application developers, while on PC almost every one ends up being forced to use Windows at some point (to use Office, to play games). And phones have been little spying machines from the start, people are more used to their phone spying on them than to their PC doing the same. I don't think macbooks require an Apple account for example.

Serious question: why is this not a problem with apple products?

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

kstrauser 7mo ago

How do you mean?

Supermancho 7mo ago
people remember creating an Apple Account login and using it on their laptop, but don't understand that it's connected in fundamentally different ways. The answer is: Because the Apple Login is not calling out for every service, including login.
- kstrauser 7mo ago
  I also think that's what they meant. Alternatively, the person could've been asking why Apple hasn't made the same boneheaded mistake as MS. I wasn't sure how to interpret their question to know how to answer it.

Jare 7mo ago

I don't recall macos forcing it. They definitely over-suggest it and the ecosystem (especially for dev) is very full of it and I consider that a problem, but it's limited in scope. If you don't want the Apple ecosystem, as far as I know you never need an AppleID.

nananana9 7mo ago
I had to make one to download Xcode from the store. I couldn' figure out a way around it, but admittedly I have about 4 hours of macos experience.
- Jare 7mo ago
  Yes, I was bunching up Xcode with "Apple ecosystem". I presume you can get clang/gcc without AppleID (but haven't actually done it myself), and for sure many other dev tools. I'd definitely much prefer if even for "ecosystem" the companies would not require online account except where truly necessary (purchases?), but for operating the OS itself, I do feel there's a line in the sand where online account requirement = no.
  - my123 7mo ago
    Xcode needs an Apple ID for download but the macOS SDK and toolchain does not. Try to run any developer tool or "xcode-select install" and it'll download the command-line tools independently from Xcode. (and then bring your own IDE)
- yearolinuxdsktp 7mo ago
  It’s impossible to install XCode without an Apple account. It’s only distributed through the Mac App Store, and downloads from Mac App Store require an Apple ID. And even XCode beta downloads are locked behind an Apple login. You can install XCode CLI dev tools without an Apple account, which comes with clang and swift for example. With this, you can build most Mac software, but I don’t think you can run Swift tests without a full XCode. As the sibling comment notes, you can install GCC/llvm and whatever other open source tools and build Mac software without full XCode. You can also install Apple container support without an Apple account.
  - zadikian 7mo ago
    Xcode is also available as a standalone download from developer.apple.com, which requires an account too, but at least it's way more reliable than downloading from the store.
    - phist_mcgee 7mo ago
      To add to it too, they only gate the download behind developer.apple.com or the app store. But the .app file doesn't phone home when installing

ubermonkey 7mo ago

The key difference is that you do not need an Apple account to use a Mac. Most people DO use one, though, because that's how you access the iCloud services that underpin the Apple ecosystem. But it's not MANDATORY. My understanding is that you cannot even log into a Windows machine without an MSFT account. That's a big difference.

KaiMagnus 7mo ago
Also people probably have more of a problem with MS accounts because they don’t really have an ecosystem that provides clear value. An Apple account together with an iPhone and MacBook let’s you share clipboard, passwords, notes etc., a no brainer. Windows laptop and iPhone? I guess an Apple account still is more useful here too, actually. So the average user does not really need an MS account, hence the annoyance.
- spogbiper 7mo ago
  If you own more than one computer, the microsoft account syncs your desktop contents and other parts of the environment.. desktop background is one I've noticed. That can be nice
spogbiper 7mo ago
You certainly can log into a Windows machine without a microsoft account. It's actually still quite common in businesses that you log in with an account managed by your organization, although this is changing as more and more businesses migrate to MS Entra ID. This still isn't exactly a "microsoft account" but its similar. You can also still log in with a completely local account as well. It takes a few extra minutes to set up but once configured it works fine. The system is full of dark patterns and roadblocks that steer users towards an MS account, but you don't have to use one.

taeric 7mo ago

Fundamentally, I think you are driving at a legitimate complaint and it should be a concern with Apple products. The direct answer, though, is largely one of execution. Microsoft isn't just pushing this heavily. They are doing so poorly.

zadikian 7mo ago
Mac doesn't require an Apple ID to use. iPhone only needs one for installing apps, and my only complaint is it's the strictest auth check on the entire phone besides disabling the account. Shouldn't need to input the Apple ID password just to install a free app, shouldn't even ask for passcode.
- taeric 7mo ago
  Setting up an iPad was rather obnoxious on this front, though. So, fundamentally, it is still very similar.
- fsflover 7mo ago
  > iPhone only needs one for installing apps So you can't have Firefox, Organic Maps, good ad blocker, popular chat and video apps and numerous other things without it. Do you consider that normal?
  - zadikian 7mo ago
    Yes. Considering that Apple created the smartphone as we know it, and it had this limitation from the start, seems normal even though I don't really like it. This wouldn't be acceptable on a PC or tablet (hence why iPads suck).
- debazel 7mo ago
  An iPhone without an Apple account is about as useful as brick because you can't load your own software onto it without the store.
  - zadikian 7mo ago

dpark 7mo ago

Apple does not tie the local account to the cloud account the same way. On a Mac you create a local account and you can (and almost certainly will) create a cloud account to link to it. But they are separate accounts. In fact I’m pretty sure Apple blocks you from setting the passwords the same on both, presumably with the intent of reminding you that they are not the same entity.

SirMaster 7mo ago
But what about our phones? Why are people so OK with an online account for their phone or tablet but not laptop?
- dpark 7mo ago
  I don’t entirely know. It’s not something that especially bothers me. I will say that I think the forced linking has encouraged other unpleasant behavior like the profile folder hijacking to OneDrive. I rather like having this stuff in OneDrive. I do not like that it is pushed so aggressively. “We moved all your stuff to OneDrive. You need to subscribe so we don’t delete it.” This feels hostile. So some of the distaste with logins tied to the cloud is probably more about the surrounding ecosystem.
- voxl 7mo ago
  How would the answer to this question illuminate your understanding? People using windows at their job also don't care. "Caring" does not need to be consistent across a group of people.
  - dpark 7mo ago
    What kind of answer is this? This seems condescending and literally provides no answer. Why even post this?
    - voxl 7mo ago
      You read what you want into the message, but have you considered turning your own perspective onto your own post?

wvenable 7mo ago

Apple is a hardware company -- their software exists to support their hardware. Microsoft is a cloud provider now -- their software exists to support their cloud business.

pier25 7mo ago

you can totally use macOS without an Apple account

dmitrygr 7mo ago

No apple product REQUIRES an iCloud account. I have an iphone without one and a mac without one

gib444 7mo ago
> No apple product REQUIRES an iCloud account Except an iPhone and iPad,to install apps people want and need. The number of people who use an iPhone without apps can be rounded down to 0

Krssst 7mo ago

People that don't want to use Apple products are not forced to do so. They can use Android (which has alternative stores, at least for the time being). Though I guess almost everyone logs in anyaway. Generally both major OS have good support from application developers, while on PC almost every one ends up being forced to use Windows at some point (to use Office, to play games). And phones have been little spying machines from the start, people are more used to their phone spying on them than to their PC doing the same. I don't think macbooks require an Apple account for example.