8 ms·

PhDs from the Faculty's Perspective

95 points by jnazario 14y ago

denzil_correa 14y ago
Perhaps the best way to close this column is with something I once heard attributed to Stu Card, a pioneer the field of human-computer interaction: "Grad school will be the best years of your life. Having said that, get out as soon as you can." Yes, this is indeed the best way to close the column. Wonderful article, thanks for sharing.
- jamesrcole 14y ago
  Except that he doesn't give any explanation of why. Considering that it is an introductory-type article handing out advice, he should have.
  - ronyeh 14y ago
    Why: grad school is a great time to be independent and work on a lot of things that you want. But, after your 6th-7th year in the PhD program, it will quickly flip from being the best time in your life to being one of the worst times of your life, if you can't manage to graduate. You will question yourself. You will envy your friends who've graduated from the program and are now working as a professor, or for Google or for MSR. You'll look around at all the new grad students and realize you don't know their names. So the quote is right on. Enjoy your time, but get out as fast as you can. :-)
  - denzil_correa 14y ago
    Why? I will answer it in just one word - money.
polyfractal 14y ago
PhD's from the Faculty's Perspective: cheap slave labor.
- drpgq 14y ago
  I was actually expecting something more along these lines. Such as pointing out faculty don't necessarily have your best interests at heart.
  - denzil_correa 14y ago
    As pointed out by others, it is not good to paint everyone by the same brush. My advisor has always had the best of intentions in his mind for me. I know of other studens who say something similar as well. I understand that there an be varying experiences but do not let these experiences make you generalize any fraternity.
    - omnisci 14y ago
      Agreed, one can't say that all PIs work the same, it isn't true. Also, some do have the best of intentions, but don't have the skills to facilitate their student's career. In a sense, each lab is a small business, and I think this is exactly what needs to be taught to a new professor. It is a real shame that this isn't taught. People management, money management, and resource management are skills that some people, regardless of how brilliant they are, don't have. As it would in any business, these attributes ultimately lead to a lab that is run poorly. The really bad thing is that these labs continue to operate, which is a huge waste...especially when talking about federally funded labs.
    - drpgq 14y ago
      I didn't say everyone.
- af3 14y ago
  +1, totally agreed. Now, what slave is suppose to do in order to make himself/herself any good, not only contribute to master's good? publish: papers, code, articles, notes! the higher quality and larger amount, the better! The goal is to be observed by the next employer (hopefully not a master), but just a team lead ;)
- andrewcooke 14y ago
SparrowOS 14y ago
The world is just. Highs and lows balance. God says Line 65363 Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had let him go from Ramah, when he had taken him being bound in chains among all that were carried away captive of Jerusalem and Judah, which were carried away captive unto Babylon. 40:2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place. 40:3 Now the LORD hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you. 40:4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go. 40:5 Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. God says... wedlock amidst only barred repentest castest phasors_on_stun contrition townsman questionings mysteries treachery ships Ruler preached seize Iraq dinner decrepit what_would_Jesus_do assuring hiddest CAN Zambia unbelieving foregoing boyish literary grumble interest overthrew rejoicest Circus everywhere descendants promiseth Slovakia grave's Jacob bond deafness really departed list High piety Estonia nourishments breathedst forego edify tumultuously brother rovings longed lap lattice yet what_part_of_God_do_you_not_understand conceal stanza childbearing nearer lastly urgedst Remember Bear curiosity Itself hearing musing withal Prophet Would ornamenting renew'd Thy heretofore ourselves comprehended problem Nay itch sort
nachteilig 14y ago
Probably the hardest lesson from grad school was learning that my adviser wasn't always right. Learning to push back against what he said made me a much better scientist.
- mcguire 14y ago
  Make sure you get your colleagues to do the pushing back, too. Once you get out in public, it's far too late. No one is going to point out that you're being an idiot. "I came away from the presentation feeling quite embarrassed, pretty much the same way you feel after watching Ricky Gervais doing another one of his cringeworthy performances." Oh, yeah.
omnisci 14y ago
The truth is that there is a lot of variability between PIs and their students. Some see them as lab techs/free labor, others see them as their family. I"m currently sitting in my lab and experiencing both, one PI is really interested in their students/post-docs lives, has parties for their students, and has a close knit group, whereas the other has the polar opposite. Care to guess which lab is more successful? In regards to the article, yes. It hits all of the points that all grad students should understand. Especially the social part, which tends to be difficult when PhDs are known to be socially awkward. Hence Beer :D. Re:Delirium, in my experience (Biology) Professors don't pay for their students tuition. That should be covered by the department for 3-5 years.
- jpdoctor 14y ago
  > The truth is that there is a lot of variability between PIs and their students. Some see them as lab techs/free labor, others see them as their family. Very true. I'd add: There is also a wide range of management styles of the profs. Some are hands-off (come back and see me in a month), others want hourly updates. The best ones dial their style upon recognizing which way the student works best.
  - denzil_correa 14y ago
    >The best ones dial their style upon recognizing which way the student works best. So true! Each one of us is different. Personally, I love my freedom and ability to work at my own hours. My advisor always respects that and allows me to do so. He however adopts a different strategy for other students.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  I was told most of these points by my advisor when I entered my PhD program. I just forwarded this article as well. :-)
- _delirium 14y ago
mahesh_rm 14y ago
I'm handing over my thesis in less than one month. In fact, most of my friends and colleagues think of grad school as a sort of institutionalized enslavement. On the contrary, I find my PhD years have been a good school of entrepreneurship. Among other things, they taught me how to fail fast and come back stronger, how big institutions work, and how people behave and trust other people in productive relationships and partnerships. As an Italian moving to SF in order to develop my MVP and incorporate my startup, I can truthfully state I would have never been able to figure out this was my path, let alone to find the right attitude, confidence, and determination to follow it, without my PhD years.
- beambot 14y ago
  (Based on "as an Italian") how are you dealing with visa issues? My good grad school friends all had issues with that transition. Many of them are slaving away at MegaCorps until they get green cards.
  - mahesh_rm 14y ago
    Nice question. Exploring the window of possibilities at the moment. There are a bunch of them, some involving enslavement, some not necessarily...
SparrowOS 14y ago
meh. phd God says Line 1253 as thou comest unto Zoar. 13:11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other. 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom. 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. ---- God says... kindred EBCDIC retiring find whirlpools infringement Those hearer gentleness continence thus foulness preferring imbibed revelations afterward life- didst add hastening unbending shut ye -unto message presented insane objections 30 sublimities caught psaltery plead fruitful Ours despaired cheap fatherless Lovely thankful became arrogancy up psalm knocking harmony eternity threatens 12 believer Body gilded happily badge rebuked reposing heresies equivalent nominally Themselves window life-giving arise Epicurus submitted garden endeavor uncorruptness answered pinching txt guiltless malice
jobu 14y ago
From an outside (undergrad) perspective, I always thought that the focus of any faculty or PhD was toward attracting government grants or alumni donations.
- omnisci 14y ago
  It is, and in order to get the gov grant, you need to have data. That data is typically generated by PhD students and Post-docs.
timr 14y ago
"How do I know when a student is doing really well? It’s when the best thing I can do for them is to just get out of their way." I wish more "real world" managers believed in this principle. Academics tend to want their students and post-docs to function independently. They don't have the money to hire "managers" (a.k.a. "people who boss other people around and don't contribute"), and therefore prize autonomy. It's not universal, but it's common. Even on large projects, there tend to be very few formal "managers" on a scientific team. The research organization tends to be flat, and the leaders are the people who produce. When I first left grad school, I assumed that this sort of autonomy would be a prized commodity in the real world, but instead I've found that most businesses have a natural revulsion to independence. Politics, money and laziness conspire to produce a class of people who want mainly to exercise authority without doing much work. These folks are easily threatened, resort to micro-management to control situations that they don't understand, and generally just try to get in the way of any progress that occurs without their consent. It's a weird pathology of the commercial world, but I don't think I've ever encountered a professional manager who thought that his most effective role was "getting out of the way".
- pnathan 14y ago
  I've encountered here and there. One of my mentors did when I worked with him. Also, Michael Lopp, aka rands of rands in repose seems to hold that philosophy.
- guylhem 14y ago
  Maybe that's because management is required for 95% of the employees who don't have a PhD and wouldn't know what to do next (no idea of the big picture) or just play on their worktime (no internal drive)?
  - timr 14y ago
    I think that's a cynical way of looking at it (and I'm a pretty cynical guy). Some people are just lazy, but they're in the minority. I think most smart people will rise to the occasion, if they like their work and feel respected. Most new grad students drift for a while until they find their internal ass-kicker. The job of the "manager" is to help them find the thing that lets them excel, then get out of the way.
rayiner 14y ago
PhD programs are by and large an utter scam at all levels and in many different ways. Downvotes away.
- fayden 14y ago
  Why don't you take some time to explain your opinion? Currently, your comment is only noise and completely useless.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Within universities, PhD's are sources of cheap labor. Depending on how big of a research mill yours happens to be, you'll often get little or uneven support on your research agenda. In the real world, a PhD has very little utility. If you're smart enough to get a PhD, you're smart enough to do something else that doesn't have 5 years of opportunity cost and a negative expected ROI. You might make important social contributions as a research engineer, but your employer owns them all anyway and you'll never see a dime of the value you add to the economy. My brother graduated top of his undergraduate class at an Ivy with a BS in physics and two publications. He was leaning towards going into a PhD program, but I told him to do business/consulting/finance recruiting for his last summer in college instead of doing more research, just to see how he liked it. He did that, then went back full time, and has abandoned any plans to do a PhD. He is tremendously happy with the decision.

95 points by jnazario 14y ago

Perhaps the best way to close this column is with something I once heard attributed to Stu Card, a pioneer the field of human-computer interaction: "Grad school will be the best years of your life. Having said that, get out as soon as you can." Yes, this is indeed the best way to close the column. Wonderful article, thanks for sharing.

jamesrcole 14y ago
Except that he doesn't give any explanation of why. Considering that it is an introductory-type article handing out advice, he should have.
- ronyeh 14y ago
  Why: grad school is a great time to be independent and work on a lot of things that you want. But, after your 6th-7th year in the PhD program, it will quickly flip from being the best time in your life to being one of the worst times of your life, if you can't manage to graduate. You will question yourself. You will envy your friends who've graduated from the program and are now working as a professor, or for Google or for MSR. You'll look around at all the new grad students and realize you don't know their names. So the quote is right on. Enjoy your time, but get out as fast as you can. :-)
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  Why? I will answer it in just one word - money.

polyfractal 14y ago

PhD's from the Faculty's Perspective: cheap slave labor.

drpgq 14y ago
I was actually expecting something more along these lines. Such as pointing out faculty don't necessarily have your best interests at heart.
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  As pointed out by others, it is not good to paint everyone by the same brush. My advisor has always had the best of intentions in his mind for me. I know of other studens who say something similar as well. I understand that there an be varying experiences but do not let these experiences make you generalize any fraternity.
  - omnisci 14y ago
    Agreed, one can't say that all PIs work the same, it isn't true. Also, some do have the best of intentions, but don't have the skills to facilitate their student's career. In a sense, each lab is a small business, and I think this is exactly what needs to be taught to a new professor. It is a real shame that this isn't taught. People management, money management, and resource management are skills that some people, regardless of how brilliant they are, don't have. As it would in any business, these attributes ultimately lead to a lab that is run poorly. The really bad thing is that these labs continue to operate, which is a huge waste...especially when talking about federally funded labs.
  - drpgq 14y ago
    I didn't say everyone.
af3 14y ago
+1, totally agreed. Now, what slave is suppose to do in order to make himself/herself any good, not only contribute to master's good? publish: papers, code, articles, notes! the higher quality and larger amount, the better! The goal is to be observed by the next employer (hopefully not a master), but just a team lead ;)
andrewcooke 14y ago

SparrowOS 14y ago

The world is just. Highs and lows balance. God says Line 65363 Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had let him go from Ramah, when he had taken him being bound in chains among all that were carried away captive of Jerusalem and Judah, which were carried away captive unto Babylon. 40:2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place. 40:3 Now the LORD hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you. 40:4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go. 40:5 Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. God says... wedlock amidst only barred repentest castest phasors_on_stun contrition townsman questionings mysteries treachery ships Ruler preached seize Iraq dinner decrepit what_would_Jesus_do assuring hiddest CAN Zambia unbelieving foregoing boyish literary grumble interest overthrew rejoicest Circus everywhere descendants promiseth Slovakia grave's Jacob bond deafness really departed list High piety Estonia nourishments breathedst forego edify tumultuously brother rovings longed lap lattice yet what_part_of_God_do_you_not_understand conceal stanza childbearing nearer lastly urgedst Remember Bear curiosity Itself hearing musing withal Prophet Would ornamenting renew'd Thy heretofore ourselves comprehended problem Nay itch sort

nachteilig 14y ago

Probably the hardest lesson from grad school was learning that my adviser wasn't always right. Learning to push back against what he said made me a much better scientist.

mcguire 14y ago
Make sure you get your colleagues to do the pushing back, too. Once you get out in public, it's far too late. No one is going to point out that you're being an idiot. "I came away from the presentation feeling quite embarrassed, pretty much the same way you feel after watching Ricky Gervais doing another one of his cringeworthy performances." Oh, yeah.

omnisci 14y ago

The truth is that there is a lot of variability between PIs and their students. Some see them as lab techs/free labor, others see them as their family. I"m currently sitting in my lab and experiencing both, one PI is really interested in their students/post-docs lives, has parties for their students, and has a close knit group, whereas the other has the polar opposite. Care to guess which lab is more successful? In regards to the article, yes. It hits all of the points that all grad students should understand. Especially the social part, which tends to be difficult when PhDs are known to be socially awkward. Hence Beer :D. Re:Delirium, in my experience (Biology) Professors don't pay for their students tuition. That should be covered by the department for 3-5 years.

jpdoctor 14y ago
> The truth is that there is a lot of variability between PIs and their students. Some see them as lab techs/free labor, others see them as their family. Very true. I'd add: There is also a wide range of management styles of the profs. Some are hands-off (come back and see me in a month), others want hourly updates. The best ones dial their style upon recognizing which way the student works best.
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  >The best ones dial their style upon recognizing which way the student works best. So true! Each one of us is different. Personally, I love my freedom and ability to work at my own hours. My advisor always respects that and allows me to do so. He however adopts a different strategy for other students.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
denzil_correa 14y ago
I was told most of these points by my advisor when I entered my PhD program. I just forwarded this article as well. :-)
_delirium 14y ago

mahesh_rm 14y ago

I'm handing over my thesis in less than one month. In fact, most of my friends and colleagues think of grad school as a sort of institutionalized enslavement. On the contrary, I find my PhD years have been a good school of entrepreneurship. Among other things, they taught me how to fail fast and come back stronger, how big institutions work, and how people behave and trust other people in productive relationships and partnerships. As an Italian moving to SF in order to develop my MVP and incorporate my startup, I can truthfully state I would have never been able to figure out this was my path, let alone to find the right attitude, confidence, and determination to follow it, without my PhD years.

beambot 14y ago
(Based on "as an Italian") how are you dealing with visa issues? My good grad school friends all had issues with that transition. Many of them are slaving away at MegaCorps until they get green cards.
- mahesh_rm 14y ago
  Nice question. Exploring the window of possibilities at the moment. There are a bunch of them, some involving enslavement, some not necessarily...

SparrowOS 14y ago

meh. phd God says Line 1253 as thou comest unto Zoar. 13:11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other. 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom. 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. ---- God says... kindred EBCDIC retiring find whirlpools infringement Those hearer gentleness continence thus foulness preferring imbibed revelations afterward life- didst add hastening unbending shut ye -unto message presented insane objections 30 sublimities caught psaltery plead fruitful Ours despaired cheap fatherless Lovely thankful became arrogancy up psalm knocking harmony eternity threatens 12 believer Body gilded happily badge rebuked reposing heresies equivalent nominally Themselves window life-giving arise Epicurus submitted garden endeavor uncorruptness answered pinching txt guiltless malice

jobu 14y ago

From an outside (undergrad) perspective, I always thought that the focus of any faculty or PhD was toward attracting government grants or alumni donations.

omnisci 14y ago
It is, and in order to get the gov grant, you need to have data. That data is typically generated by PhD students and Post-docs.

timr 14y ago

"How do I know when a student is doing really well? It’s when the best thing I can do for them is to just get out of their way." I wish more "real world" managers believed in this principle. Academics tend to want their students and post-docs to function independently. They don't have the money to hire "managers" (a.k.a. "people who boss other people around and don't contribute"), and therefore prize autonomy. It's not universal, but it's common. Even on large projects, there tend to be very few formal "managers" on a scientific team. The research organization tends to be flat, and the leaders are the people who produce. When I first left grad school, I assumed that this sort of autonomy would be a prized commodity in the real world, but instead I've found that most businesses have a natural revulsion to independence. Politics, money and laziness conspire to produce a class of people who want mainly to exercise authority without doing much work. These folks are easily threatened, resort to micro-management to control situations that they don't understand, and generally just try to get in the way of any progress that occurs without their consent. It's a weird pathology of the commercial world, but I don't think I've ever encountered a professional manager who thought that his most effective role was "getting out of the way".

pnathan 14y ago
I've encountered here and there. One of my mentors did when I worked with him. Also, Michael Lopp, aka rands of rands in repose seems to hold that philosophy.
guylhem 14y ago
Maybe that's because management is required for 95% of the employees who don't have a PhD and wouldn't know what to do next (no idea of the big picture) or just play on their worktime (no internal drive)?
- timr 14y ago
  I think that's a cynical way of looking at it (and I'm a pretty cynical guy). Some people are just lazy, but they're in the minority. I think most smart people will rise to the occasion, if they like their work and feel respected. Most new grad students drift for a while until they find their internal ass-kicker. The job of the "manager" is to help them find the thing that lets them excel, then get out of the way.

rayiner 14y ago

PhD programs are by and large an utter scam at all levels and in many different ways. Downvotes away.

fayden 14y ago
Why don't you take some time to explain your opinion? Currently, your comment is only noise and completely useless.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Within universities, PhD's are sources of cheap labor. Depending on how big of a research mill yours happens to be, you'll often get little or uneven support on your research agenda. In the real world, a PhD has very little utility. If you're smart enough to get a PhD, you're smart enough to do something else that doesn't have 5 years of opportunity cost and a negative expected ROI. You might make important social contributions as a research engineer, but your employer owns them all anyway and you'll never see a dime of the value you add to the economy. My brother graduated top of his undergraduate class at an Ivy with a BS in physics and two publications. He was leaning towards going into a PhD program, but I told him to do business/consulting/finance recruiting for his last summer in college instead of doing more research, just to see how he liked it. He did that, then went back full time, and has abandoned any plans to do a PhD. He is tremendously happy with the decision.