4 ms·
Modern LLMs, just like everyone reading this, will instead reach for a calculator to perform such tasks. I can't do that in my head either, but a python script
by luma 7mo ago
Modern LLMs, just like everyone reading this, will instead reach for a calculator to perform such tasks. I can't do that in my head either, but a python script can so that's what any tool-using LLM will (and should) do.
- zamalek 7mo agoThis is special pleading. Long multiplication is a trivial form of reasoning that is taught at elementary level. Furthermore, the LLM isn't doing things "in its head" - the headline feature of GPT LLMs is attention across all previous tokens, all of its "thoughts" are on paper. That was Opus with extended reasoning, it had all the opportunity to get it right, but didn't. There are people who can quickly multiply such numbers in their head (I am not one of them). LLMs don't reason.
- markatto 7mo agoI tried this with Claude - it has to be explicitly instructed to not make an external tool call, and it can get the right answer if asked to show its work long-form.
- esafak 7mo agoMathematics is not the only kind of reasoning, so your conclusion is false. The human brain also has compartments for different types of activities. Why shouldn't an AI be able to use tools to augment its intelligence?
- zamalek 7mo agoI used the mathematics example only because the GP did. There are many other examples of non-reasoning, including some papers (as recent as Feb).
- azakai 7mo agoThere are many examples of current limitations, but do you see a reason to think they are fundamental limitations? (I'm not saying they aren't, I'm curious what the evidence is for that.)
- zamalek 7mo agoIt's because of how transformers work, especially the fact that the output layer is a bunch of weights which we quite literally do a weighted random choice from. My hunch is that diffusion models would have a higher chance of doing real reasoning - or something like a latent space for reasoning. Thinking that LLMs are intelligent arises from an incomplete understanding of how they work or, alternatively, having shareholders to keep happy.
- CamperBob2 7mo agoFurthermore, the LLM isn't doing things "in its head" - the headline feature of GPT LLMs is attention across all previous tokens, all of its "thoughts" are on paper LOL, talk about special pleading. Whatever it takes to reshape the argument into one you can win, I guess... LLMs don't reason. Let's see you do that multiplication in your head. Then, when you fail, we'll conclude you don't reason. Sound fair?
- digitalPhonix 7mo agoI can do it with a scratch pad. And I can also tell you when the calculation exceeds what I can do in my head and when I need a scratch pad. I can also check a long multiplication answer in my head (casting 9s, last digit etc.) and tell if there’s a mistake. The LLMs also have access to a scratch pad. And importantly don’t know when they need to use it (as in, they will sometimes get long multiplication right if you ask them to show their work but if you don’t ask them to they will almost certainly get it wrong).
- dirasieb 7mo ago> And importantly don’t know when they need to use it patently false, but hey at least you’re able to see the parallel between you with a scratch pad and an LLM with a python terminal
- digitalPhonix 7mo agoSure, lets test that: https://chatgpt.com/s/t_69c420f3118081919cf525123e39598c https://chatgpt.com/s/t_69c420f3118081919cf525123e39598c https://chatgpt.com/s/t_69c4215daeb481919fdaf22498fb0c4f https://chatgpt.com/s/t_69c4215daeb481919fdaf22498fb0c4f Do you have a different definition of false? I'm referring to their reasoning context as their scratch pad if that wasn't clear.
- zamalek 7mo agoThe context is the scratch pad. LLMs have perfect recall (ignoring "lost in the middle") across the entire context, unlike humans. LLMs "think on paper."
- disconcision 7mo agoi assert that by your evidentiary standards humans don't reason. presumably one of us is wrong. therefore, humans don't reason.
- jibal 7mo agoLLMs don't use tools. Systems that contain LLMs are programmed to use tools under certain circumstances.
- dirasieb 7mo agoyou’re just abstracting it away into this new “systems” definition when someone says LLMs today they obviously mean software that does more than just text, if you want to be extra pedantic you can even say LLMs by themselves can’t even geenrate text since they are just model files if you don’t add them to a “system” that makes use of that model files, doh
- jibal 7mo ago> when someone says LLMs today they obviously mean ... LLMs, if the someone is me or others who understand why it's important to be precise. And in this context, the distinction between LLM and AI mattered--not pedantic at all. I won't respond further ... over and out.