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VitruvianOS – Desktop Linux Inspired by the BeOS
- egorfine 7mo agoWith age verification built in, right? right?
- leke 7mo agoSo this is a lighter weight alternative to other Linux desktops?
- tadfisher 7mo agoWell, it can't run X or Wayland apps, so I wouldn't call it an alternative to those. An alternative to Haiku maybe.
- Gabrys1 7mo agowhy no X11?
- ErroneousBosh 7mo agoBecause everyone's going for Wayland, even though you still need XWayland to do anything useful on it because Wayland is comically incomplete.
- Gabrys1 7mo agowell, I mean, why can't this ship with an X server? Or maybe it does and then I'm not sure why it is said that only Haiku apps are supported
- numerio 7mo agoIt's not that it can't, if you can do something it doesn't mean you should. If we used X it'd be another linux distro isn't it? Part of the fun is to make your own UI feel.
- ranger_danger 7mo agohttps://github.com/X547/wayland-server https://github.com/X547/wayland-server
- arm 7mo agoMore context here: https://v-os.dev/news/vitruvian-0.3.0-available/ https://v-os.dev/news/vitruvian-0.3.0-available/
- watersb 7mo ago25 years ago, I configured GNOME to run a BeOS-like tabbed window manager. On a sun workstation. But that's not what this is. Or not only: Nexus Kernel Bridge Nexus is Vitruvian's custom Linux kernel subsystem that brings BeOS-style node monitoring, device tracking, and messaging to Linux — making it possible to run Haiku applications on a standard Linux kernel. It claims to run apps from Haiku, the current open-source implementation of a modern BeOS.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- zozbot234 7mo agoLooks like this is a thin translation layer for BeOS/Haiku syscalls. I wonder why they aren't relying on Syscall User Dispatch https://docs.kernel.org/6.19/admin-guide/syscall-user-dispatch.html https://docs.kernel.org/6.19/admin-guide/syscall-user-dispat... which would enable them to put this compatibility layer in user space. It's already being used by recent Wine versions.
- hym_the_pawn 7mo agoIt's not really a translation layer, nexus implements the same BeOS/Haiku IPC in kernel but using linux kernel primitives. It's not as much as a translation layer than any other IPC in the linux system, really BeOS/Haiku apps are first class citizens.
- p_l 7mo agoMost of BeOS IPC is in mainline Linux kernel [1] - the difference here seems to be implementing some of the services that are supposed to be available related to filesystem etc and the user land side of it (raw IPC does very little without another layer on top) [1] - there's a reason why a bunch of BeBook reads the same as some of the oldest parts of Android documentation
- numerio 7mo agoBTW because that would not solve any problem for us, the technique you're linking can be useful only if what you want to achieve is binary compatibility otherwise it's useless. That's not really what we are after.
- asadm 7mo agois there a debian distro that is close to win98. Sorta like ReactOS but can be daily-driven.
- kube-system 7mo agoTry this: https://github.com/grassmunk/Chicago95 https://github.com/grassmunk/Chicago95
- xfce4 7mo agoinstall it on devuan and you'll be fine
- thisislife2 7mo agoThis is interesting - a Linux distro that really differentiates itself technically, instead of just having a different GUI / desktop environment.
- Yaggo 7mo agoYeah, first I thought this is just a BeOS-inspired GUI theme, but there is more to it: Nexus is Vitruvian's custom Linux kernel subsystem that brings BeOS-style node monitoring, device tracking, and messaging to Linux — making it possible to run Haiku applications on a standard Linux kernel.
- aaronbrethorst 7mo agoVitruvian asks a different question: what would I actually want to do with my computer that I currently can’t? Only be able to drag a window around the screen from the top left corner
- ianlevesque 7mo agoTo be fair that's one more corner than Tahoe.
- aaronbrethorst 7mo agoTouché, and such a good reminder why everyone should wait for macOS 27.
- danwills 7mo agoOn many Linux desktop environments it is the default - or can be configured: To hold the Windows Key ('meta') and left-mouse-drag a window around from _anywhere inside the window_! No need to get the mouse into the 'title bar'! Additionally, meta+middle-mouse-drag allows one to resize a window from anywhere in the whole window!! (it chooses the closest corner when the drag starts) and this, being able to resize a window without needing to put the mouse in a usually-very-thin window border, is extremely liberating in my opinion! To the point where I really miss it on sub-windows where the app is handling resizing/etc itself! There's a Windows app I used to use that supports the same kind of thing for Windows (different key I think), no idea if there's one for Mac I'm afraid - or whether it can be configured to work that way, but there probably is one so it would be worth investigating if this sounds useful to you I'd say!
- rebolek 7mo agoIf you like BeOS, take a look at Haiku https://www.haiku-os.org/ https://www.haiku-os.org/ , it's very nice and very usable system based directly on BeOS.
- pjmlp 7mo agoAnd much better option, running the real deal, instead of some compatibility layer.
- AlecSchueler 7mo agoPresumably there's a lot more modern software written for Linux which you'd end up running through a compatibility layer from Haiku? The better option seems relative. I could be misremembering how Linux programmes are handled on Haiku though.
- pjmlp 7mo agoMaybe the fallacy is not exploring what a given OS is great at? We don't need to clone UNIX all over the place.
- hnlmorg 7mo agoHow strictly do you mean “UNIX clone”? Because Linux isn’t strictly UNIX. But then at the other end of the scale, BeOS was also partially POSIX compliant and shipped with Bash plenty of UNIX CLI tools. Perhaps it’s better to play it safe and just run DOS instead ;)
- pjmlp 7mo agoIt certainly is, what it is not, is a derivative. BeOS on its final commercial version certainly did not allow to compile UNIX applications, beyond the common surface that is part of ISO C and ISO C++ standard library.
- 7mo ago
- ofrzeta 7mo ago"Real-time patched Linux kernel for low-latency desktop use" - does this really make sense? I think there have been various efforts like this over the decades but as far as I remember none of them really made a huge difference for the end user.
- worthless-trash 7mo agoIIRC the realtime patchset that RHEL maintained in its own branch/tree was upstreamed last year. I don't think it makes sense for desktop applications, it may make sense if sound latency is a priority but even then stock kernel delivered lower latency in many cases.
- numerio 7mo agoI won't say you're wrong because you aren't, in fact the system works very well also with non-rt kernels. But the graphical stack is not really designed like the average linux stack, the BeOS is somewhat hungry in terms of timing and I believe our implementation can take advantage of a RT kernel. But if it'd proven unnecessary I'd be 100% for changing it back, it's just a package in our image creation code after all, we don't strictly depend on it.
- worthless-trash 7mo agoCan i take a moment to thank you for working this project. I wont pretend to understand the mammoth undertaking to get this to the state that its in. Good work.
- hrmtst93837 7mo ago[flagged]
- nico 7mo agoBeOS was such an amazing experience back in the day. It really felt magical. Too bad it got shutdown. I wonder what the evolution of it would be like today
- eightman 7mo agohttps://www.haiku-os.org/ https://www.haiku-os.org/
- AlecSchueler 7mo agoI love Haiku but I feel it's quite different than where BeOS would be today had BeOS continued to exist. In that alternative world there might have been considerably more influence from BeOS going into the rest of the industry much sooner, and that effect could have snowballed.
- silisili 7mo agoMy first memory of BeOS was that it could play media independently. You could play a video in one window, and an MP3 or another video in another, and they'd both play audio at the same time. I don't know exactly why, but child me thought that was so interesting, since every other OS at the time seemed unable to.
- bluedino 7mo agoBeOS was released in October 1995, and Windows 95 was able to play two videos (or more) at one time, with audio from both.
- setopt 7mo agoIf I recall directly, Apple was between buying BeOS and NeXT. Would be interesting what would have happened if they went the Be route instead of the Unix route. (But given that MacOS and BeOS were both fringe at the time, perhaps they would just have gone bankrupt…)
- ab5tract 7mo ago
- donatj 7mo agoThe important question becomes can you stack the window decoration "tabs" of different apps into a single stack of tabs like in BeOS? Demonstrated here (animated): https://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/images/gui-images/gui-s+t.gif https://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/images/gui-images...
- msk-lywenn 7mo agoI used to run fluxbox in the early 2000s. I greatly miss tabbing any windows like that.
- nunodonato 7mo agome too! fluxbox and gkrellm for some kick ass desktop "widgets" monitoring the computer :D
- guerrilla 7mo agoThere's no equivalent on Wayland?
- BirAdam 7mo agoSway.
- Zardoz84 7mo agoKDE had it. And I missed it a lot.
- gedy 7mo agoI believe the Cosmic Desktop from Pop OS has that again
- malicka 7mo agoYou can run fluxbox today! I still do, I can’t go without window tabs. :^)
- guerrilla 7mo agoThis is what we needed in our OSes instead of Firefox tabs.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- KnuthIsGod 7mo agoWhy does the marketing read like slop ? "VitruvianOS is an alternative Linux desktop with a singular philosophy: the human at the center." https://v-os.dev/news/vitruvian-0.3.0-available/ https://v-os.dev/news/vitruvian-0.3.0-available/
- 28304283409234 7mo agoBecause they're enthusiastic engineers. Not marketing people.
- unixhero 7mo agoWhy should users not instead go for Haiku
- jonhohle 7mo agoIt’s Linux, with all of the support that provides. Not a knock on Haiku, but if I can have a BeOS window manager and Tracker, while running modern Linux binaries natively, I’d be a happy.
- WD-42 7mo agoUI elements that have depth look so mouth-wateringly good now. So over the minimalism and bouncing back hard.
- 716dpl 7mo agoI find it soothing. There is ornamentation in its design, but it's precise and minimal, but also friendly. The icons, in particular, look so good.
- pndy 7mo agoIt fitted right these times when everything had that pseudo-3D gray outlook but yet was unique with these small yellow title bars (which you could move), diagonal icons and taskbar that could be placed in both corners and edges of the screen. Now compare that last thing to what MS did to Windows 11 taskbar, and only in last days announced it'll gladly restore previous behavior. Haiku retained all of this and bring something new like combining various windows into single tabbed one - not sure if any other system has such feature. Or... toolbar in file manager - which is something I really missed back then in BeOS. Back then BeOS was much more stable and faster than my daily Win98SE, even working in that image file on FAT32 partition. Kinda makes you wonder, how things would go if Apple would pick BeOS as their OS instead of Jobs' NeXT. Would it still looks same or it would go thru all stages we've seen - with glass, transparency and then flatness and darkpatterns producing minimalism.
- kannanvijayan 7mo agoI remember being very disappointed when Apple went with the NeXT tech instead of the Be tech. I was in undergrad when that happened. In retrospect though, the company wasn't making a technology decision. They were making a decision between Jobs and Gassee. Jobs came with NeXT and Gassee came with Be. I don't think the technology mattered that much in the large scale of things. Jobs brought with him a strategy for moving personal computing from a technical market category to a fashion market category - either to make technology fashionable or to make fashion technical (however you want to look at it). It's a strategy that started with candy-coloured iMacs and ended with iPhones. Gassee brought a really cool OS. Apple made the right choice.
- jazzyjackson 7mo agoI’ll try this out with my eink display, interface might look good in grayscale. So far my favorite desktop for this is the Chicago95 theme for xfce
- dddw 7mo agoDo share a screenshot if you do. What refreshrate do you have on that display?
- blacklion 7mo agoI think, in case of e-Ink photo is much more informative, as screenshot takes data from frame buffer and didn't take screen technology in account.
- jazzyjackson 7mo ago:P lol indeed a screeshot would be full color Perhaps I can place the monitor on my scanner and take a “screenshot” that way xD Re: refresh rates I can’t find a good stat with a brief googling but it’s a Boox Mira, E Ink VB3300-NCD You can tolerably watch video so somewhere north of 20fps but there’s ghosting. A friendly button on the front of the display is there to do a hard refresh if the artifacts build up too much. But yes I should do a comparison on how different desktop environments do, with animations turned off etc, scrolling that jumps line by line like vim or eMacs will work better than smooth scrolling for instance.
- blacklion 7mo agoI've tried smartphone with e-Ink (mostly for motorcycle and hiking navigation, not as daily driver) and know this problem — it is impossible to share this experience via screenshots or screen recordings :)
- jonhohle 7mo agoIs this a new window manager and tracker or something skinned for this use case? Wayland, X11? There’s a screenshots section but the details are sparse.
- riffraff 7mo agoIt runs haiku apps through a compatibility layer
- numerio 7mo agoit's a little bit more of a compatible layer, it's just a native implementation really. You wouldn't call android a "compatibility layer" right? Kind of a similar idea here.
- Findecanor 7mo agoIt is a native windowing system, probably a port from Haiku. There exists at least one rootless X11 server for BeOS/Haiku that would run on top, that shouldn't be too difficult to port (knock on wood ...)
- clayhacks 7mo agoOk maybe I’m too young, but what is BeOS? Everyone here is linking other alternatives, but no one’s linked to the original BeOS. Or is it gone now?
- lobf 7mo agoI don't understand this type of helplessness when you're already competent enough to use HN... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS
- gjvc 7mo agostick around...
- ranger_danger 7mo ago"Why did you ask this when you can google it?" Because sometimes I learn unexpected things and get another perspective even when I could search for it myself.
- lobf 6mo agowhat perspective could there possibly be on "what was BeOS?" Like, it was an operating system.
- lproven 7mo ago> Ok maybe I’m too young, but what is BeOS? Does this help? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47520510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47520510
- rcarmo 7mo agoI hope it’s not just the look. The ability to group tabs from various apps into a single window was the best UX feature it had, and I still miss it sometimes.
- numerio 7mo agoit's the real app_server running :) so you have everything you'd expect
- shevy-java 7mo agoIt's been a pain to try to get ruby to work on Haiku, so I expect that this will be like linux - but worse, in that barely anything works. I like the design choices made by BeOS, but we have 2026 now. Linux kind of showed that practical considerations beat theoretical superiority (except for the desktop segment, where Linux keeps on failing hard; see GTK5 not supporting xorg, it is now the all corporate-dictated wayland era).
- numerio 7mo agothe cli stuff in Vitruvian are exactly the same you'd get on a debian install. So it'd just work out of the box on our OS.
- yason 7mo agoI bought an Amiga in the early 90's and enjoyed it immensely. Commodore went under and Amiga died. I bought BeOS in the late 90's and enjoyed it immensely like a breath of fresh air in a sewage pipe. BeOS died. With my track record I really, really should've bought Windows. Twice, to make sure.
- makach 7mo agoI had to read this message twice, gotcha
- peterashford 7mo agoI think we were on the same track. I absolutely loved the Amiga and was about to jump on board BeOS when it went under. I never got to use BeOS as a daily driver (just ran their demo disk). How did you find it?
- prmoustache 7mo agoI ran it in a dual boot with linux install but I ended up using Linux more despite liking beos because of the ecosystem. There were just more software available on Linux, especially lightweight tui tools.
- yason 7mo agoFrom them internets after the x86 version got out, I think. Played enough with what I found around, and I ultimately bought (with real money) the BeOS 5.0 Personal Edition, made it dual-boot my Linux machine and knew that this is it! It felt like an Amiga but on soulless PC hardware instead! The exhilaration was unlimited! It booted fast, no old cruft, unorthodox designs, everything one-in-a-thousand a true harbinger customer loves! Eventually I think the setup gradually bit rot with no updates and unsupported hardware, so I reluctantly had to go back to Linux. I remember Ubuntu and Gnome 2 started to look pretty nice (well, for an inferior desktop environment) in the early years of 2000. (Unsurprisingly, years later Gnome came out with Gnome 3 and killed all the good stuff that Gnome 2 had accumulated. I can only wait and see how long Mate desktop survives.) I still keep a Haiku VM around and boot it every now and then.
- 7mo ago
- lnxg33k1 7mo ago> It’s very easy to use. It features an intuitive desktop > and adopts KISS principles. Anyone can rapidly feel at >home and use V\OS. User experience, workflow and comfort > is key. What is more intuitive than a button to close a window without a X, in order to make people from every other OSes feel at home https://v-os.dev/img/photogrid.png https://v-os.dev/img/photogrid.png -- When words have no meaning
- numerio 7mo agoI don't understand the ragebait here. First thing, it's the BeOS GUI that is like that. Secondarily, seems to me also MacOS X lacks a X button? Or did they change it? Third, we can discuss about that, it's trivial to change. Cheers
- add2 7mo agoHow about making Haiku frameworks OS independent?
- Findecanor 7mo agoThere is a blog entry [0] on the web site mentioning that they needed a Linux kernel module for some missing filesystem pieces, and also configure the kernel to be realtime. I wonder what they will do to support BeOS' MediaKit. It has packet streams with realtime delivery. [0] https://v-os.dev/blog/2026/02/10/haiku-runtime-on-linux/ https://v-os.dev/blog/2026/02/10/haiku-runtime-on-linux/
- numerio 7mo agoWe have the same IPC that BeOS/Haiku has so it'd run natively, but actually Vitruvian will provide a new modern media framework that is compatible with the old media kit through an external compat library.
- s1mn 7mo agoI was never cool enough to run BeOS but I coveted it. It looked so cool and futuristic compared with Windows. I'm not cool enough to run VitruvianOS either, but i'm glad it exists.
- vanderZwan 7mo agoSort-of unrelated (but very on-brand for people into BeOS I think), it's so satisfying when a webpage is so free of bloat that navigation and latency to clicking on things in general feels instant.
- carlesfe 7mo agoI ran BeOS as a daily driver for a few months in the early 2000s. I had a winmodem and Linux couldn't connect to the internet for me, but for some reason, BeOS had drivers, so I used it. It was faster and the desktop environment felt more polished than KDE/Gnome. Of course, at that time, it was impossible to know which OS would win the wars, so BeOS became my favorite. However, Linux developed very quickly during those years, I got into college and started using UNIX there, winmodem drivers appeared, and that's what I ended up using. But BeOS still holds a very dear place in my heart. It really was superior to anything else during that era.
- dainiusse 7mo ago+1. Even though it had limitations, it had this "clean polished feeling"
- hypercube33 7mo agoWhat set it apart was the out of the way UX and clean fast experience. It was a real time kernal to boot. I think korg used it on some of their synth products or something even. To me the UX and experience on it was (still) ahead of its time. It ran stuff on a Pentium 90 like it was a 400mhz beast running NT.
- tecleandor 7mo agoRelated interview with VitruvianOS dev: https://www.desktoponfire.com/interview/846/an-interview-with-dario-casalinuovo-from-beos-to-vitruvianos/ https://www.desktoponfire.com/interview/846/an-interview-wit...
- prmoustache 7mo agoAnyone remember BlueEyedOS? It had exactly the main goal, building a beos compatible OS on top of the Linux kernel.
- hencq 7mo agoYes! I was racking my brain trying to remember what it was called. Back in the early 2000s I ran BeOS on my desktop and absolutely loved it. Then when they went under, I followed the effort to come up with an open source version with guest interest. There was one effort that wanted to build everything from scratch. That's what was later renamed into Haiku (I think initially openBeOS maybe?). There was also BlueEyedOS who thought you could get there faster by building on Linux and X11. I think Haiku got more traction because at the time people felt that it should run BeOS software without recompiling. I have long wondered what would have happened if BlueEyedOS would have gotten most of the effort.
- lproven 7mo agoA later successor was Cosmoe: https://gitlab.com/haydentech/cosmoe-classic/ https://gitlab.com/haydentech/cosmoe-classic/ This has evolved into a new UI layer for Wayland, on top of Linux... https://cosmoe.org/index.html https://cosmoe.org/index.html I wrote about it last year: https://www.theregister.com/2025/06/25/cosmoe_new_cpp_toolkit/ https://www.theregister.com/2025/06/25/cosmoe_new_cpp_toolki...
- aryonoco 7mo agoLittle known fact, a small piece of BeOS survives to this day and is an integral part of Android BeOS came up with “Binder” for doing inter process communication. Just before Be Inc. was acquired by Palm, some Be engineers somehow convinced management to release Binder as open source, which came to be known as OpenBinder. After the Palm acquisition many Be engineers moved to a startup called Android Inc, and adopted OpenBinder for IPC. And the rest as they say, is history.
- pjmlp 7mo agoAnother thing that survives is that they wrote Java as if writing C++ with m_ prefixes, and several other Cisms, which prevail to today.
- numerio 7mo agoThank you everyone for commenting! We are going to pubblish small articles on the website to clarify some of the common questions that are popping around. We will also do our best to improve our wording and marketing, thanks everyone for the suggestions and stay tuned!
- rubymamis 7mo agoCan someone list what are some cool/novel BeOS features that other OSes didn’t have at the time and maybe still don’t have?
- numerio 7mo agowith BeOS you have instant indexed search, with no index server, and with atomic instant updates (e.g. the same moment you modify a file, the search results update) this is yet to be seen, and we are planning to implement it on Vitruvian
- _spduchamp 7mo agoBeOS had the BEST icons.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- Findecanor 7mo agoHaiku's are even better. They have been remade in a scalable vector graphics format, but one that is still very compact: often smaller than the comparable pixmap. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40196333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40196333
- flippyhead 7mo agoEven if the cheaps are weak... is the code strong?
- weli 7mo agoIs this using haiku as a kernel or is it a complete re-implementation of BeOs/Haiku API's? I can't tell by their website or github.
- numerio 7mo agoit's like a port of Haiku on top of the linux kernel roughly
- kriro 7mo agoMy favorite part of BeOS is the file system. The book can be found freely here: https://www.nobius.org/dbg/ https://www.nobius.org/dbg/
- nathell 7mo agoI almost overlooked this, and then when I didn’t, I almost dismissed this as Yet Another Linux Distro with a custom skin. But no, there’s novelty and exploration in here. There’s attempt to venture off the local maximum. This is a breath of fresh air.
- vibbix 7mo agoPleasant surprise to hear about this. I've had a fascination with BeOS & Haiku for decades. I am now actually developing a custom website layout themed after BeOS (good excuse to learn Figma!)
- mac3n 7mo agoMy favorite thing about the early BeBox was the Pulse CPU meter, which shows the load on each of the two CPU chips. Clicking on a CPU stopped it. Clicking on the second stopped it as well, which took me a moment to realize.
- create_accounts 7mo ago[dead]
- Redster 7mo agoI'm not getting enough sleep. I read this as ViltrumiteOS. I haven't even watched Invincibles.
- radiator 7mo agowhat we’ve actually created is an alternative Linux desktop that uses neither X nor Wayland, this is very welcome news, since X is allegedly "abandonware" and of course not everybody likes wayland.
- ranger_danger 7mo agoCosmoe, a similar project that supports running Haiku apps on Linux, has also been recently revived after 18 years: https://pappp.net/?p=95060 https://pappp.net/?p=95060 There is also a library version where you can use the Haiku API to write Linux apps. I do have to say... in all my years of software development, as far as system APIs go, BeOS/Haiku has by far been the most pleasant and easy-to-use API I have ever seen, so this is a very welcome addition for me.
- kev009 7mo agoThis is both ambitious and seemingly not intractable which is a rare goldilocks combination. As some contrast, consider something like GNUStep. You are never going to get macOS out of GNUStep, no matter how hard you try, because it is too high level (Cocoa) while simultaneously too ambitious. Similarly, with alternate kernels like ReactOS you will never get full replacement of Windows because it is too ambitious and intractable. The intersection of this project though, it is a cunning insight in using the hardware support of Linux and shedding the graphics layer for something a lot simpler with a minimal kernel module to support the existing mechanics of BeOS. This is more in line with wine, which is and has been useful for a long time, but is even easier. This doesn't mean it will achieve massive user base, but it seems like it will mature fast enough into something dedicated fans can enjoy and use productively.
- 0x80h 7mo agoThis is pure nostalgia. What a fantastic time playing with BeOS :)
- voidfunc 7mo agoVery interesting. Wonder if this can run Proton for gaming... this looks about perfect.
- a-dub 7mo agodoes preempt_rt actually confer a ui responsiveness benefit on multicore systems?
- ginkgotree 7mo agoI installed BeOS in the 90s as a kid. It was awesome, and I love seeing this.
- markus_zhang 7mo agoTangible: Talking about BeOS, this is the most fantastic piece of technological fiction I read about: https://www.haiku-os.org/legacy-docs/benewsletter/Issue4-8.html https://www.haiku-os.org/legacy-docs/benewsletter/Issue4-8.h...
- pelasaco 7mo agosystemd based?
- voxelghost 7mo agono
- hym_the_pawn 7mo agoYes.
- pelasaco 6mo agolol yes/no/cancel?