3 ms·

We can blame both. If my repair bill was higher because the mechanic chose to use a ridiculous electric screwdriver that used tons of power to achieve what a no

We can blame both. If my repair bill was higher because the mechanic chose to use a ridiculous electric screwdriver that used tons of power to achieve what a normal screwdriver can and stripped the screws in the process then I'd also be upset with both the mechanic and the ridiculously inefficient tool.

anthonylevine 8mo ago
> a ridiculous electric screwdriver So React, the most popular front-end library and used my hundreds of thousands of successful apps, is the ridiculous electric screwdriver? See how weird that sounds and makes it obvious you guys can't give an honest assessment?
- voidUpdate 8mo ago
  React is a javascript library. Javascript needs its own runtime. Why not just write stuff in native windows controls and save having to run an entire javascript runtime for no reason?
  - anthonylevine 8mo ago
    > Why not just write stuff in native windows controls and save having to run an entire JavaScript runtime for no reason? Idk, and I'm not saying it's not a good question, but it's irrelevant to the comparison in OP's comment.
    - voidUpdate 8mo ago
      Using an entire javascript runtime and framework to make your OS start menu is using a ridiculous overpowered electric screwdriver that strips heads. Using native windows controls is using a proper manual screwdriver that just works
      - serf 8mo ago
        it's also just a numbers thing. react and more broadly JS developers are a dime-a-dozen as far as availability goes compared to winapi folks. which on one hand, good -- fuck microsoft and the monolith; on the other hand we get react start menus when we have to use microsoft.
  - p_ing 8mo ago
    .NET Framework needs its own runtime. Java needs its own runtime. What's the issue?
    - voidUpdate 8mo ago
      I have no issue with user-facing applications doing whatever they want, electron apps bundle an entire chromium to do their thing, but there's a win32 and win64 api in C for a reason, to make OS level stuff fast
    - jamesnorden 8mo ago
      I wouldn't want my start menu to load the entire Java runtime before opening, that's the issue at hand.
  - someguyiguess 8mo ago
    Only someone who has not tried to write stuff in "native windows" would ask this question. If you want a real answer, go try and develop a Windows native application real quick. I'll wait...
    - voidUpdate 8mo ago
      I would hope that the windows developers who are working on the windows shell would know how to write a windows native application in C. If it's that bad, they should improve the API, not just write it all in react instead
    - hannahoppla 8mo ago
      Windows 7 was not written in react, it looked great and worked great. Get those guys to write the UI for Windows 11.
      - mexicocitinluez 8mo ago
        What parts of Windows was written in React?
    - kergonath 8mo ago
      This is such a ridiculous argument. Applications were developed long before JavaScript was a thing.
    - CamperBob2 8mo ago
      I learned Win32 programming from the Petzold book circa 1993. Pretty much everything in there still works, if I type it in and compile it with the current Visual C/C++ toolchain. I might need to get rid of a few MOVEABLE and DISCARDABLE tags here and there, I suppose.
- foltik 8mo ago
  Its popularity or success in other apps has nothing to with the windows situation. Other apps are successful despite being slow and bloated, since performance isn’t a primary concern of users. In contrast it’s critical for OS internals like the start menu, so a javascript runtime and framework is just the wrong tool for the job.
- 3842056935870 8mo ago
  [dead]
- flohofwoe 8mo ago
  "Shit tastes great! Millions of flies can't be wrong!" ;) React only makes sense as a layer on top of the browser DOM, because the DOM itself cannot be fixed without rewriting it from scratch, so making it usable for non-trivial UI needs to happen in the 'framework layer'. But without the DOM as the thing that needs fixing and the restrictions of the single-threaded browser-event-loop, the React programming model simply doesn't make a lot of sense. Using the "React-paradigm" outside the browser (e.g. SwiftUI, React Native) is pure cargo-culting, it only makes sense for onboarding web-devs who are already familar with React - but makes it harder to create UIs for anybody else. The actual problem in the context of Win11 is of course that Microsoft doesn't have any sort of longterm strategy for Windows system APIs (not just UI frameworks). The only long-term-stable API is Win32.

anthonylevine 8mo ago

> a ridiculous electric screwdriver So React, the most popular front-end library and used my hundreds of thousands of successful apps, is the ridiculous electric screwdriver? See how weird that sounds and makes it obvious you guys can't give an honest assessment?

voidUpdate 8mo ago
React is a javascript library. Javascript needs its own runtime. Why not just write stuff in native windows controls and save having to run an entire javascript runtime for no reason?
- anthonylevine 8mo ago
  > Why not just write stuff in native windows controls and save having to run an entire JavaScript runtime for no reason? Idk, and I'm not saying it's not a good question, but it's irrelevant to the comparison in OP's comment.
  - voidUpdate 8mo ago
    Using an entire javascript runtime and framework to make your OS start menu is using a ridiculous overpowered electric screwdriver that strips heads. Using native windows controls is using a proper manual screwdriver that just works
    - serf 8mo ago
      it's also just a numbers thing. react and more broadly JS developers are a dime-a-dozen as far as availability goes compared to winapi folks. which on one hand, good -- fuck microsoft and the monolith; on the other hand we get react start menus when we have to use microsoft.
- p_ing 8mo ago
  .NET Framework needs its own runtime. Java needs its own runtime. What's the issue?
  - voidUpdate 8mo ago
    I have no issue with user-facing applications doing whatever they want, electron apps bundle an entire chromium to do their thing, but there's a win32 and win64 api in C for a reason, to make OS level stuff fast
  - jamesnorden 8mo ago
    I wouldn't want my start menu to load the entire Java runtime before opening, that's the issue at hand.
- someguyiguess 8mo ago
  Only someone who has not tried to write stuff in "native windows" would ask this question. If you want a real answer, go try and develop a Windows native application real quick. I'll wait...
  - voidUpdate 8mo ago
    I would hope that the windows developers who are working on the windows shell would know how to write a windows native application in C. If it's that bad, they should improve the API, not just write it all in react instead
  - hannahoppla 8mo ago
    Windows 7 was not written in react, it looked great and worked great. Get those guys to write the UI for Windows 11.
    - mexicocitinluez 8mo ago
      What parts of Windows was written in React?
  - kergonath 8mo ago
    This is such a ridiculous argument. Applications were developed long before JavaScript was a thing.
  - CamperBob2 8mo ago
    I learned Win32 programming from the Petzold book circa 1993. Pretty much everything in there still works, if I type it in and compile it with the current Visual C/C++ toolchain. I might need to get rid of a few MOVEABLE and DISCARDABLE tags here and there, I suppose.
foltik 8mo ago
Its popularity or success in other apps has nothing to with the windows situation. Other apps are successful despite being slow and bloated, since performance isn’t a primary concern of users. In contrast it’s critical for OS internals like the start menu, so a javascript runtime and framework is just the wrong tool for the job.
3842056935870 8mo ago
[dead]
flohofwoe 8mo ago
"Shit tastes great! Millions of flies can't be wrong!" ;) React only makes sense as a layer on top of the browser DOM, because the DOM itself cannot be fixed without rewriting it from scratch, so making it usable for non-trivial UI needs to happen in the 'framework layer'. But without the DOM as the thing that needs fixing and the restrictions of the single-threaded browser-event-loop, the React programming model simply doesn't make a lot of sense. Using the "React-paradigm" outside the browser (e.g. SwiftUI, React Native) is pure cargo-culting, it only makes sense for onboarding web-devs who are already familar with React - but makes it harder to create UIs for anybody else. The actual problem in the context of Win11 is of course that Microsoft doesn't have any sort of longterm strategy for Windows system APIs (not just UI frameworks). The only long-term-stable API is Win32.