3 ms·

That's fair, but... What's the alternative? Obviously someone's going to have better academic performance if you have tutors, there's no way around. Still, if y

That's fair, but... What's the alternative? Obviously someone's going to have better academic performance if you have tutors, there's no way around. Still, if you have good academic performance - you have it. American system feels more unfair when you're given points for extracurriculars like playing instruments or sports, like that's not going to hold poorer children even more (also how's that related to academic performance at all? Unis should not care about unrelated things)

keiferski 7mo ago
Universities in the US and other countries are not the same, and comparing them is not really fruitful. US universities do care about extracurriculars and GPA and other things because they aren’t optimizing for raw academic performance, they’re optimizing for various other things like an interesting student body (that attracts donors, professors, and future students), real-world networks, and so on.
- jimbokun 7mo ago
  In other words an extra four years of day care before those students have to function independently as adults.
  - keiferski 7mo ago
    No, that’s not even remotely close to what I wrote, at any level. In fact, it’s closer to the opposite, because selecting purely based on an abstract exam has nothing to do with being a real-world adult, whereas extracurriculars, internships, etc. do to some level.
    - jimbokun 7mo ago
      Camus life is not good preparation for post campus life, unless Google and Facebook are still modeling their work environments to imitate campus life.
Ekaros 7mo ago
Pure lottery for all slots? Seems that it would be fairest possible alternative. Anything else being less fair.
alistairSH 7mo ago
The university will argue that a well-rounded student body improves the experience for everybody. IE, a college that's 100% "nerds" won't be as good as college that's 80% "nerds", 10% "smart jocks", and 10% "band geeks" (or whatever other categories you want). I probably agree with that, but also acknowledge there's no good way to make that completely objective.
- mgfist 7mo ago
  > I probably agree with that, but also acknowledge there's no good way to make that completely objective. Even worse, rich kids have far more means to engage in extracurriculars than poor kids.
- bonoboTP 7mo ago
  In Europe, university is treated as education for adults, not your entire life. Most universities are not campus resorts like in the US, but just buildings in the city itself, students live a normal life in the city, they rent a apartment or live in a dorm, take public transit to get to places, do sport at a sport place independent of the university, etc. You can live a well rounded life that way. The university is there so you learn your specialization. Of course people make friends there, but it doesn't have to be your entire life, and the university administrators job is not to meddle with people's social lives to make them "interesting", but to allow learning.
  - alistairSH 7mo ago
    Our oldest unis are generally "downtown" or similar - Harvard, Princeton, UVA (sort of - Charlottesville is a really small city), etc. Though most do still have their own dormitory housing, at least for underclassmen. The large campus-style uni is fairly recent creation - many came out of the land grant system during/after the Civil War. And even as newer unis have been created, they've followed that general design (even though they aren't land grant institutions).
    - jimbokun 7mo ago
      All of those universities you mention still immerse students in the university setting round the clock, though.
poulpy123 7mo ago
Good schools for everyone
nyeah 7mo ago
One important thing is whether the tutoring is making better students, or just gaming the test.
- CalRobert 7mo ago
  And after graduation they can grind leetcode, and after that they can practice social cues to get in the management class. It's gamed tests all the way down.
  - nyeah 7mo ago
    For people who choose that career path. Still, somewhere somebody is doing some work.
    - CalRobert 7mo ago
      The uggos I guess
- jimbokun 7mo ago
  Are those independent?
  - nyeah 7mo ago
    That's tricky. I think it depends on what kind of gaming and what kind of test.

keiferski 7mo ago

Universities in the US and other countries are not the same, and comparing them is not really fruitful. US universities do care about extracurriculars and GPA and other things because they aren’t optimizing for raw academic performance, they’re optimizing for various other things like an interesting student body (that attracts donors, professors, and future students), real-world networks, and so on.

jimbokun 7mo ago
In other words an extra four years of day care before those students have to function independently as adults.
- keiferski 7mo ago
  No, that’s not even remotely close to what I wrote, at any level. In fact, it’s closer to the opposite, because selecting purely based on an abstract exam has nothing to do with being a real-world adult, whereas extracurriculars, internships, etc. do to some level.
  - jimbokun 7mo ago
    Camus life is not good preparation for post campus life, unless Google and Facebook are still modeling their work environments to imitate campus life.

Ekaros 7mo ago

Pure lottery for all slots? Seems that it would be fairest possible alternative. Anything else being less fair.

alistairSH 7mo ago

The university will argue that a well-rounded student body improves the experience for everybody. IE, a college that's 100% "nerds" won't be as good as college that's 80% "nerds", 10% "smart jocks", and 10% "band geeks" (or whatever other categories you want). I probably agree with that, but also acknowledge there's no good way to make that completely objective.

mgfist 7mo ago
> I probably agree with that, but also acknowledge there's no good way to make that completely objective. Even worse, rich kids have far more means to engage in extracurriculars than poor kids.
bonoboTP 7mo ago
In Europe, university is treated as education for adults, not your entire life. Most universities are not campus resorts like in the US, but just buildings in the city itself, students live a normal life in the city, they rent a apartment or live in a dorm, take public transit to get to places, do sport at a sport place independent of the university, etc. You can live a well rounded life that way. The university is there so you learn your specialization. Of course people make friends there, but it doesn't have to be your entire life, and the university administrators job is not to meddle with people's social lives to make them "interesting", but to allow learning.
- alistairSH 7mo ago
  Our oldest unis are generally "downtown" or similar - Harvard, Princeton, UVA (sort of - Charlottesville is a really small city), etc. Though most do still have their own dormitory housing, at least for underclassmen. The large campus-style uni is fairly recent creation - many came out of the land grant system during/after the Civil War. And even as newer unis have been created, they've followed that general design (even though they aren't land grant institutions).
  - jimbokun 7mo ago
    All of those universities you mention still immerse students in the university setting round the clock, though.

poulpy123 7mo ago

Good schools for everyone

nyeah 7mo ago

One important thing is whether the tutoring is making better students, or just gaming the test.

CalRobert 7mo ago
And after graduation they can grind leetcode, and after that they can practice social cues to get in the management class. It's gamed tests all the way down.
- nyeah 7mo ago
  For people who choose that career path. Still, somewhere somebody is doing some work.
  - CalRobert 7mo ago
    The uggos I guess
jimbokun 7mo ago
Are those independent?
- nyeah 7mo ago
  That's tricky. I think it depends on what kind of gaming and what kind of test.