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I wonder if Gil Tal has ever used an EV as their daily vehicle. I have had two EVs in the last three years - a Kona and an IONIQ 5. I have greatly enjoyed them

by RevEng 7mo ago

I wonder if Gil Tal has ever used an EV as their daily vehicle. I have had two EVs in the last three years - a Kona and an IONIQ 5. I have greatly enjoyed them both. But one thing was a downside that I just had to accept: poor charging. Granted, I live in the Canadian Prairies full of small towns a fair distance apart. And it's not exactly progressive - I'm actually being taxed for owning an EV. The charging infrastructure is sparse with 50-100kW charges every 100km. On long distance trips I spend 1 hour charging for every 2 hours driving. To say that faster charging wouldn't make a meaningful difference is simply wrong. Sure, it doesn't have to be 5 minutes - even 10-15 would be enough - but current chargers don't get anywhere close to that, even with 350kW, which rarely if ever reach those charging speeds. For driving around the city I never bat an eye. I have a level 2 charger in my garage and there's one at work that is decently priced should I ever need it. I never use a fast charger for local travel. But long distance travel is what people are worried about and having much faster charging would most certainly make a difference for me and for them.

2muchcoffeeman 7mo ago
Not if the charger doesn’t work.
ranit 7mo ago
Could you please elaborate on: > I'm actually being taxed for owning an EV.
- __oh_es 7mo ago
  Some countries charge a road tax or annual vehicle tax, and ev’s are often except as a green incentive
  - phil21 7mo ago
    and some places charge a higher annual fee for EVs due to roads being largely funded by gas taxes. Seems totally fair to me so long as the averages largely line up for both vehicle types.
- QGQBGdeZREunxLe 7mo ago
  https://www.saskatchewan.ca/business/taxes-licensing-and-reporting/provincial-taxes-policies-and-bulletins/fuel-tax/road-use-charge-on-electric-vehicles https://www.saskatchewan.ca/business/taxes-licensing-and-rep...
- jbm 7mo ago
  Alberta is imposing a charge on EV registrations, and they increased it again this year. At some point I'm hoping courts curtail their attempt at imposing gas cars but given how Canadian courts are hamstrung at obvious human rights issues in places like Quebec, I doubt they will do anything about Alberta either.
  - zetanor 7mo ago
    >Canadian courts are hamstrung at obvious human rights issues Huh?
  - b112 7mo ago
    Paying the fair share for road maintenance isn't a human rights issue.
    - dotancohen 7mo ago
      Reducing carbon emissions most certainly is a human rights issue. I absolutely can not breathe when I go to large cities. I live in a village, drive an electric, and charge it from rooftop solar.
      - b112 7mo ago
        You actually can breath in "large cities", unless you have a pre-existing health condition. Otherwise, all the people in those "large cities" would already be dead, and they'd cease being "large cities". Or at least, populated ones. "Carbon emissions" is a human rights issue, just as 1000 other things are. Whether "reducing" carbon emissions is determined to be a right is not black and white as of yet. Regardless, leveling a road tax has nothing to do with that. It is merely a tax to be inline with what everyone else pays. You may as well say you have a right to a free electric car too, or maybe a right to get 50% off. You do realise the roads have to be maintained, yes? And that's what the tax on gas is for, yes? I assure you, endless environmentalists which don't drive anything at all, and see the construction of roads as an annoyance, would be upset at the idea of cars, any type of car, electric or otherwise, as bad. And are very upset at any sort of car being subsidized to increase adoption. But of course, because you own an electric car, it's now a human rights issue that you get to pay less. Right?
- jjmarr 7mo ago
  There's a special excise tax on gasoline for highway and road maintenance. EVs don't pay that tax because they use normal electricity. So Alberta introduced a $200 EV fee to match the average revenue from the excise tax. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-electric-vehicle-tax-1.7132365 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-electric-veh...
  - bigstrat2003 7mo ago
    It sounds like the more accurate framing, then, is "I'm not getting a tax break for having an EV". Which is disappointing sure, but not outrageous either.
    - RevEng 7mo ago
      That's the framing but it's also misleading. We are being charged more than a typical ICE driver would pay in gasoline tax. It's also listed as being for road maintenance, but in fact it goes into the general revenue, so it has nothing to do with road maintenance.
      - b112 7mo ago
        The first part is untrue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47475419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47475419 The second is not necessarily true.
durjrjdjdk 7mo ago
Put diesel generator on trailer, and charge while driving. Best of both worlds!
- aidenn0 7mo ago
  Kona at least won't drive while charging.
aidenn0 7mo ago
Faster charging improves things in more EV-friendly areas as well. I live in Southern California, and if I take a trip on the weekend that is more than the 240mi. freeway range my Kona gets, I'm never worried about being stranded, but I have waited in line for an hour to charge; sub-10 minute charging would cut wait times too, and is probably necessary if the US both wants to electrify its transportation and still have people take road-trips on major holidays.
knocte 7mo ago
> On long distance trips I spend 1 hour charging for every 2 hours driving In Spain, I take ~600km trips every once in a while. I just need to charge once in the middle of the trip, in a super-charger that is. And the charge is 25min maximum. Your experience varies is basically opposite from my experience. Your situation is probably influenced, indeed, by the poor choice of EVs you purchased (range is the most important factor for me to buy) and the lack of superchargers around your area.
- RevEng 7mo ago
  If an Ioniq 5 is a poor choice, I would love to know what a good choice is. Its energy usage is comparable to the vast majority of SUVs and it can charge at up to 227kW. The lack of good fast charger is certainly a difference compared to many areas.
  - knocte 7mo ago
    Only the Long Range version of the Ioniq5 has decent range IMO. And BTW, the fact that it's an SUV is precisely a downside about it; smaller cars would have obviously more efficiency.
    - aaravchen 6mo ago
      It's worth noting that at least EU vs US, most the the better quality EVs are not available. Almost all the long range and more efficient EVs are Chinese-made and are not available in the US. My understanding is that the vast majority of EVs in the EU are these Chinese-made ones because of their hugely superior performance. I don't know if Canada has the same restrictions on EVs, and I definitely can't speak to longevity or quality of the Chinese-made EVs, only to the charging speed and range. BYD for example is one of these Chinese-made brands prohibited in the US but leading the industry in performance.
stavros 7mo ago
> Sure, it doesn't have to be 5 minutes - even 10-15 would be enough - but current chargers don't get anywhere close to that My car has a 83 kWh battery and charges at 150 kW, which, for 20% to 80% (what you want to generally do on a trip) means 20 minutes. 20 minutes of charge gets me 300 km, and I generally definitely want to stop for 20 minutes every 300 km or so. I don't see how that's not "anywhere close" to 15.
- gravypod 7mo ago
  I don't think RevEng was saying it is impossible to do technically. I believe they were saying the charging infrastructure near their home makes it impossible to do practically as the chargers are often limited to 50-100kW. Aging Wheels did a video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouPiwt5hxXQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouPiwt5hxXQ
  - stavros 7mo ago
    Ahh I see, thanks. Here in Greece chargers are pretty good, though not very many still.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
486sx33 7mo ago
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LeFantome 7mo ago
I have also had two EVs and what you are saying does not resonate. I may be in warmer weather but I would say I probably charge 15 minutes to go 250 km or more. Given that the family also wants to stop to eat, go to the bathroom, or just get out for a bit, it mostly feels like we are stopping when we want to and not for much longer. Typically, stretches of driving are longer than 250 km. We can go over 400 km at a time (but rarely do). To be fair though, we have great charging infrastructure. There is going to be fast charging in the next town pretty reliably. At home, day to day, we charge at home and the car is basically magic. You drive as much as you like every day and never think about “fuel” at all. The thing just works. Going back to the non-EV SUV is daily “range anxiety” as it always seems like I am late for something and wondering if I have enough fuel to make it without having to stop. Don’t get me wrong. Faster charging would be great and I am not saying we have never wanted to leave 10 minutes sooner from a charging station. But I have not found it anywhere near as bad as you are saying, even now.
ikr678 7mo ago
In remote areas, sudden load from fast chargers can cause a bit of trouble with the rest of the local grid. It may be that those rest stops can't yet support a fast charger without upgrading their transformers.
- RevEng 7mo ago
  That's not nearly the problem that people think it is. Industrial and farm operations often use that much. Upgrading is the problem though. Many of these stations were installed when 50kW was normal. With no other competition nearby there is no incentive to replace everything. It would mean new transformers and potentially even new lines.
  - ikr678 7mo ago
    We maybe have different definitions of remote. I was referring to truckstops where there is no transmission/hv in and local microgrid generation only- these sites might be on highways that are common tourist drives but unable to support superchargers.
RevEng 7mo ago
Several people have said that they get much more range and charge much faster. I'm quite interested to know what your situation is: what is the efficiency of your vehicle in kWh/100km or Wh/km? At what rate are you able to charge with nearby chargers? How dense is the population of chargers in your area? I'm aware that my situation is far from ideal, maybe even far from normal - I have no way to know. What I do know is that this is common for all of Canada outside of the major cities, and to the best of my knowledge is common for much of the USA too. This is a huge market to be left out if this is the EV experience for them. It's not sufficient if EVs only work in specific areas that are densely populated and have ample infrastructure. It becomes a chicken-and-egg situation where nobody wants an EV because the infrastructure sucks, but nobody wants to invest in infrastructure because there aren't many EVs to have as customers. Here are the numbers for my 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5. It has a 77kWh battery, though only nominally - only 68kWh is actually usable. On long trips I will charge up to 90% and drive down to 20%, so that leaves me with 70% of the available capacity for use, or 47.6kWh. On the highway going 100-110km/h I spend about 20kWh/100km during the summer, 25kWh/100km during the winter (it gets down to -30C and you have to heat the cabin). That gives me about 240km range in the summer, 190km range in the winter. Since chargers are few and far between around here I usually have to stop every 100-150km to charge - chargers are typically that far apart on the highway. At most my vehicle can charge up to 227kW. If I could get that consistently I would charge in 12.6 minutes. In practice I don't get anywhere near that. As I stated before, most chargers are 50-100kW in my area. There are some as high as 175kW, but they are in remote areas where chargers were only installed recently; all of the chargers along the main highways are older infrastructure that has been around for a few years and they are only 50kW. Thankfully, I actually get a consistent 50kW from those regardless of charge and temperature. That takes almost exactly an hour to charge. Going 100km/h with a range of ~200km that puts me at 1 hour of charging every 2 hours of driving. Since the Tesla Supercharger network has opened up to non-Tesla vehicles, things have gotten a bit better, but only modestly. Despite the Superchargers being rated for 250kW, they run at 400V where my vehicle is on an 800V architecture. As a result I can only pull ~97kW from a Supercharger. This reduces the charging time to 30 minutes, which is manageable, but still a noticeable inconvenience. On an 8 hour drive this adds up to 2 hours of charging time, extending an 8 hour trip to 10 hours. I think you'll agree that's a significant increase. In a nearby major city they did recently install 350kW chargers so I tried those out. Unfortunately, I happened to be travelling there on a cold winter day. I struggled to get up to 180kW, spending most of the time around 120kW. The battery preconditioning on this vehicle leaves much to be desired and it won't even turn on until you are within 50km of a stop on the nav (no manual override), despite it taking well over 30 minutes to get the battery up to temperature. The charging rate is severely limited below 0C and doesn't come up to full until about 20C. 20C is the high on a typical summer day around here; spring and autumn hover around 10C-15C. This means you only get full charging speeds in ideal conditions; anything else is noticeably worse. For efficiency, my experienced 20kWh/100km of pure highway driving seems to be around average. EV-database.org lists the average WLTP (a blend of city and highway driving) as 190Wh/km, or 19kWh/100km. The Ioniq 5 AWD is listed at 180Wh/km, which is similar to my experience when combining both city and highway. The best are the Tesla Model 3 RWD at 130-140Wh/km which is quite impressive. Other small coupes have numbers about that around 150-160. The Ford Mach-e AWD is also common around here and comes out to 202Wh/100km, so notably higher. So other than comparing it to the most efficient RWD sedan, comparing it to other AWD SUVs it is quite normal. Around here, most people drive AWD SUVs or trucks because winter can be nasty. (You can drive FWD sedans - I did for 20 years - but most people get AWD SUVs or trucks if they can afford it because it's much better.) So this is my experience. I hope it explains why I say that charging still needs to improve in many ways. Different vehicles will have different efficiency. Different areas will have different weather and availability of chargers. Both seem to be getting steadily better with time. But outside of ideal conditions, charging is still a serious downside for many people and it is a blocker to adoption to many. Even at my office several people have recently purchased EVs but had to swallow the pill that long trips were going to suck. Until consistently good efficiency and fast charging become widespread, EVs will remain a niche in many areas where the downsides are simply too great.

by RevEng 7mo ago

2muchcoffeeman 7mo ago

Not if the charger doesn’t work.

ranit 7mo ago

Could you please elaborate on: > I'm actually being taxed for owning an EV.

__oh_es 7mo ago
Some countries charge a road tax or annual vehicle tax, and ev’s are often except as a green incentive
- phil21 7mo ago
  and some places charge a higher annual fee for EVs due to roads being largely funded by gas taxes. Seems totally fair to me so long as the averages largely line up for both vehicle types.
QGQBGdeZREunxLe 7mo ago
https://www.saskatchewan.ca/business/taxes-licensing-and-reporting/provincial-taxes-policies-and-bulletins/fuel-tax/road-use-charge-on-electric-vehicles https://www.saskatchewan.ca/business/taxes-licensing-and-rep...
jbm 7mo ago
Alberta is imposing a charge on EV registrations, and they increased it again this year. At some point I'm hoping courts curtail their attempt at imposing gas cars but given how Canadian courts are hamstrung at obvious human rights issues in places like Quebec, I doubt they will do anything about Alberta either.
- zetanor 7mo ago
  >Canadian courts are hamstrung at obvious human rights issues Huh?
- b112 7mo ago
  Paying the fair share for road maintenance isn't a human rights issue.
  - dotancohen 7mo ago
    Reducing carbon emissions most certainly is a human rights issue. I absolutely can not breathe when I go to large cities. I live in a village, drive an electric, and charge it from rooftop solar.
    - b112 7mo ago
      You actually can breath in "large cities", unless you have a pre-existing health condition. Otherwise, all the people in those "large cities" would already be dead, and they'd cease being "large cities". Or at least, populated ones. "Carbon emissions" is a human rights issue, just as 1000 other things are. Whether "reducing" carbon emissions is determined to be a right is not black and white as of yet. Regardless, leveling a road tax has nothing to do with that. It is merely a tax to be inline with what everyone else pays. You may as well say you have a right to a free electric car too, or maybe a right to get 50% off. You do realise the roads have to be maintained, yes? And that's what the tax on gas is for, yes? I assure you, endless environmentalists which don't drive anything at all, and see the construction of roads as an annoyance, would be upset at the idea of cars, any type of car, electric or otherwise, as bad. And are very upset at any sort of car being subsidized to increase adoption. But of course, because you own an electric car, it's now a human rights issue that you get to pay less. Right?
jjmarr 7mo ago
There's a special excise tax on gasoline for highway and road maintenance. EVs don't pay that tax because they use normal electricity. So Alberta introduced a $200 EV fee to match the average revenue from the excise tax. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-electric-vehicle-tax-1.7132365 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-electric-veh...
- bigstrat2003 7mo ago
  It sounds like the more accurate framing, then, is "I'm not getting a tax break for having an EV". Which is disappointing sure, but not outrageous either.
  - RevEng 7mo ago
    That's the framing but it's also misleading. We are being charged more than a typical ICE driver would pay in gasoline tax. It's also listed as being for road maintenance, but in fact it goes into the general revenue, so it has nothing to do with road maintenance.
    - b112 7mo ago
      The first part is untrue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47475419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47475419 The second is not necessarily true.

durjrjdjdk 7mo ago

Put diesel generator on trailer, and charge while driving. Best of both worlds!

aidenn0 7mo ago
Kona at least won't drive while charging.

aidenn0 7mo ago

Faster charging improves things in more EV-friendly areas as well. I live in Southern California, and if I take a trip on the weekend that is more than the 240mi. freeway range my Kona gets, I'm never worried about being stranded, but I have waited in line for an hour to charge; sub-10 minute charging would cut wait times too, and is probably necessary if the US both wants to electrify its transportation and still have people take road-trips on major holidays.

knocte 7mo ago

> On long distance trips I spend 1 hour charging for every 2 hours driving In Spain, I take ~600km trips every once in a while. I just need to charge once in the middle of the trip, in a super-charger that is. And the charge is 25min maximum. Your experience varies is basically opposite from my experience. Your situation is probably influenced, indeed, by the poor choice of EVs you purchased (range is the most important factor for me to buy) and the lack of superchargers around your area.

RevEng 7mo ago
If an Ioniq 5 is a poor choice, I would love to know what a good choice is. Its energy usage is comparable to the vast majority of SUVs and it can charge at up to 227kW. The lack of good fast charger is certainly a difference compared to many areas.
- knocte 7mo ago
  Only the Long Range version of the Ioniq5 has decent range IMO. And BTW, the fact that it's an SUV is precisely a downside about it; smaller cars would have obviously more efficiency.
  - aaravchen 6mo ago
    It's worth noting that at least EU vs US, most the the better quality EVs are not available. Almost all the long range and more efficient EVs are Chinese-made and are not available in the US. My understanding is that the vast majority of EVs in the EU are these Chinese-made ones because of their hugely superior performance. I don't know if Canada has the same restrictions on EVs, and I definitely can't speak to longevity or quality of the Chinese-made EVs, only to the charging speed and range. BYD for example is one of these Chinese-made brands prohibited in the US but leading the industry in performance.

stavros 7mo ago

> Sure, it doesn't have to be 5 minutes - even 10-15 would be enough - but current chargers don't get anywhere close to that My car has a 83 kWh battery and charges at 150 kW, which, for 20% to 80% (what you want to generally do on a trip) means 20 minutes. 20 minutes of charge gets me 300 km, and I generally definitely want to stop for 20 minutes every 300 km or so. I don't see how that's not "anywhere close" to 15.

gravypod 7mo ago
I don't think RevEng was saying it is impossible to do technically. I believe they were saying the charging infrastructure near their home makes it impossible to do practically as the chargers are often limited to 50-100kW. Aging Wheels did a video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouPiwt5hxXQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouPiwt5hxXQ
- stavros 7mo ago
  Ahh I see, thanks. Here in Greece chargers are pretty good, though not very many still.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

486sx33 7mo ago

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LeFantome 7mo ago

I have also had two EVs and what you are saying does not resonate. I may be in warmer weather but I would say I probably charge 15 minutes to go 250 km or more. Given that the family also wants to stop to eat, go to the bathroom, or just get out for a bit, it mostly feels like we are stopping when we want to and not for much longer. Typically, stretches of driving are longer than 250 km. We can go over 400 km at a time (but rarely do). To be fair though, we have great charging infrastructure. There is going to be fast charging in the next town pretty reliably. At home, day to day, we charge at home and the car is basically magic. You drive as much as you like every day and never think about “fuel” at all. The thing just works. Going back to the non-EV SUV is daily “range anxiety” as it always seems like I am late for something and wondering if I have enough fuel to make it without having to stop. Don’t get me wrong. Faster charging would be great and I am not saying we have never wanted to leave 10 minutes sooner from a charging station. But I have not found it anywhere near as bad as you are saying, even now.

ikr678 7mo ago

In remote areas, sudden load from fast chargers can cause a bit of trouble with the rest of the local grid. It may be that those rest stops can't yet support a fast charger without upgrading their transformers.

RevEng 7mo ago
That's not nearly the problem that people think it is. Industrial and farm operations often use that much. Upgrading is the problem though. Many of these stations were installed when 50kW was normal. With no other competition nearby there is no incentive to replace everything. It would mean new transformers and potentially even new lines.
- ikr678 7mo ago
  We maybe have different definitions of remote. I was referring to truckstops where there is no transmission/hv in and local microgrid generation only- these sites might be on highways that are common tourist drives but unable to support superchargers.

RevEng 7mo ago

Several people have said that they get much more range and charge much faster. I'm quite interested to know what your situation is: what is the efficiency of your vehicle in kWh/100km or Wh/km? At what rate are you able to charge with nearby chargers? How dense is the population of chargers in your area? I'm aware that my situation is far from ideal, maybe even far from normal - I have no way to know. What I do know is that this is common for all of Canada outside of the major cities, and to the best of my knowledge is common for much of the USA too. This is a huge market to be left out if this is the EV experience for them. It's not sufficient if EVs only work in specific areas that are densely populated and have ample infrastructure. It becomes a chicken-and-egg situation where nobody wants an EV because the infrastructure sucks, but nobody wants to invest in infrastructure because there aren't many EVs to have as customers. Here are the numbers for my 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5. It has a 77kWh battery, though only nominally - only 68kWh is actually usable. On long trips I will charge up to 90% and drive down to 20%, so that leaves me with 70% of the available capacity for use, or 47.6kWh. On the highway going 100-110km/h I spend about 20kWh/100km during the summer, 25kWh/100km during the winter (it gets down to -30C and you have to heat the cabin). That gives me about 240km range in the summer, 190km range in the winter. Since chargers are few and far between around here I usually have to stop every 100-150km to charge - chargers are typically that far apart on the highway. At most my vehicle can charge up to 227kW. If I could get that consistently I would charge in 12.6 minutes. In practice I don't get anywhere near that. As I stated before, most chargers are 50-100kW in my area. There are some as high as 175kW, but they are in remote areas where chargers were only installed recently; all of the chargers along the main highways are older infrastructure that has been around for a few years and they are only 50kW. Thankfully, I actually get a consistent 50kW from those regardless of charge and temperature. That takes almost exactly an hour to charge. Going 100km/h with a range of ~200km that puts me at 1 hour of charging every 2 hours of driving. Since the Tesla Supercharger network has opened up to non-Tesla vehicles, things have gotten a bit better, but only modestly. Despite the Superchargers being rated for 250kW, they run at 400V where my vehicle is on an 800V architecture. As a result I can only pull ~97kW from a Supercharger. This reduces the charging time to 30 minutes, which is manageable, but still a noticeable inconvenience. On an 8 hour drive this adds up to 2 hours of charging time, extending an 8 hour trip to 10 hours. I think you'll agree that's a significant increase. In a nearby major city they did recently install 350kW chargers so I tried those out. Unfortunately, I happened to be travelling there on a cold winter day. I struggled to get up to 180kW, spending most of the time around 120kW. The battery preconditioning on this vehicle leaves much to be desired and it won't even turn on until you are within 50km of a stop on the nav (no manual override), despite it taking well over 30 minutes to get the battery up to temperature. The charging rate is severely limited below 0C and doesn't come up to full until about 20C. 20C is the high on a typical summer day around here; spring and autumn hover around 10C-15C. This means you only get full charging speeds in ideal conditions; anything else is noticeably worse. For efficiency, my experienced 20kWh/100km of pure highway driving seems to be around average. EV-database.org lists the average WLTP (a blend of city and highway driving) as 190Wh/km, or 19kWh/100km. The Ioniq 5 AWD is listed at 180Wh/km, which is similar to my experience when combining both city and highway. The best are the Tesla Model 3 RWD at 130-140Wh/km which is quite impressive. Other small coupes have numbers about that around 150-160. The Ford Mach-e AWD is also common around here and comes out to 202Wh/100km, so notably higher. So other than comparing it to the most efficient RWD sedan, comparing it to other AWD SUVs it is quite normal. Around here, most people drive AWD SUVs or trucks because winter can be nasty. (You can drive FWD sedans - I did for 20 years - but most people get AWD SUVs or trucks if they can afford it because it's much better.) So this is my experience. I hope it explains why I say that charging still needs to improve in many ways. Different vehicles will have different efficiency. Different areas will have different weather and availability of chargers. Both seem to be getting steadily better with time. But outside of ideal conditions, charging is still a serious downside for many people and it is a blocker to adoption to many. Even at my office several people have recently purchased EVs but had to swallow the pill that long trips were going to suck. Until consistently good efficiency and fast charging become widespread, EVs will remain a niche in many areas where the downsides are simply too great.