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Agreed. Was always taught to never put elbows on the table, but as an adult I see people do it everywhere.
by markdown 7mo ago
Agreed. Was always taught to never put elbows on the table, but as an adult I see people do it everywhere.
- GuestFAUniverse 7mo agoYeah, as if we still have loose table tops, like in medieval times.
- rglullis 7mo agoSeeing people fail to meet a standard does not mean that the standard does not exist.
- rkomorn 7mo agoWhen it comes to manners, I'd say seeing enough people fail to meet a standard means it's not a standard, at least.
- rglullis 7mo agoNo, that's argumentum ad populum. Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids: - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them - the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless. - If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) - You are free to not comply to some rules, but always be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions. - What your friends are doing or not doing is not reason enough for you to change your behavior or choices.
- YeahThisIsMe 7mo agoBut the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard.
- rglullis 7mo agoYou and I are using different meanings for standard.
- throwthrowuknow 7mo agothen it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard
- TheOtherHobbes 7mo agoAnd the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and social status. I had a friend who came from a working class culture where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances, like whether someone put milk in their tea before or after pouring it. Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant. Middle and upper class people had a completely different set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less obvious displays of wealth - which the working class aspirers were oblivious to.
- throwthrowuknow 7mo agoSo? Doesn’t make it a universal standard. Just an invented shibboleth for a group.
- thaumasiotes 7mo ago> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard.
- rglullis 7mo agoMost people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean metric doesn't exist. Standards are not absolutes.
- latexr 7mo ago> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them But not observing them does. There are standards no one in the world follows anymore. They may still “be there”, but are only used for mocking purposes. > If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes anyone else for not following a standard must be able to explain why it exists. “Because it’s rude” it’s not good enough, explain why it’s considered rude.
- rglullis 7mo agoI don't see anything in your responses that even remotely contradict or relate to what I said. Are you just looking for an argument here?
- technothrasher 7mo agoIt seems like you are making a different point than the other posters. If the majority of a group does not follow an etiquette standard, it is reasonable to say that the group does not hold that standard. Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard, then that standard exists is true, but is more tangential to the other point that a rebuttal of it.
- rglullis 7mo ago> Your point that if any group holds an etiquette standard... Not quite. My original comment was in response to "I see people violating rule X anywhere, even though I was told it was 'wrong'". All I am saying is one shouldn't be basing their behavior solely on what they see others "getting away with".
- altmanaltman 7mo agoThat might be true for things like laws, but manners and customs are not strictly enforced by any central authority, at least these days, but rather by how culture/generation changes. It is possible that if nobody follows the same etiquette anymore, it means it is outdated and no longer exists. That is the entire point of progress. At one point in time, it was considered bad etiquette to interact with people of color, but over time, society changed for the better. That etiquette literally doesn't exist anymore. That doesn't mean people are "getting away with" not following a "rule" these days. But rather customs/morals/etiquette are transitory and prone to changes, and one must understand what is and what isn't actual etiquette instead of just following all outdated "rules". That's also fundamentally different from something like a law, where the ethical thing to do is that you should still follow it even if others are "getting away" with it.
- f1shy 7mo agoThis is just great way to put it and explain.
- WrongAssumption 7mo ago"Appeals to public opinion are valid in situations where consensus is the determining factor for the validity of a statement, such as linguistic usage and definitions of words." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
- scheme271 7mo agoI think the deeper question is whose standards and why should we consider them the standard?
- rglullis 7mo agoThat's the thing with standards: there are so many of them to choose from. You don't have to follow them, but you do you should be ready to accept the consequences of your choice.
- bee_rider 7mo agoThere are lots of standards, but some contradict one-another. In the area I grew up in, caring too much about useless aesthetic stuff like “elbows on the table” would have a social cost.
- AdamN 7mo agoSome of them of course are invented whole cloth. British Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate.
- Lio 7mo agoYou say “needs to be learned” but that’s no more so than any other accent. We just grow up with it because it’s how our parents and the parents of our friends speak. If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a large variety of accents of which RP is one.
- Lio 7mo agoNot sure why this is controversial. RP is just an accent like any other now. I didn’t have lessons for it and I don’t know anyone else that did. It’s just how we speak.
- deleted 7mo ago