5 ms·

They're saying all the right things here. Fixing long-standing complaints, removing Copilot from obnoxious places, improvements to Windows Update and Windows E

They're saying all the right things here. Fixing long-standing complaints, removing Copilot from obnoxious places, improvements to Windows Update and Windows Explorer stability/microstutter/lag, etc. I congratulate them on seeing sense, and I congratulate Apple on another victory with the Neo. Kind of frustrating that's what it took for Microsoft to finally listen to their userbase.

binsquare 7mo ago
Don't congratulate yet until you see actual outcomes. The author of this commitment is the same person (Pavan Davuluri) spearheading move of Windows into an Agentic OS: https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-president-confirms-os-will-become-ai-agentic-generates-push-back-online https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...
- xvector 7mo ago
  Absolutely nothing wrong with an "agentic OS", agentic UX is the future of personal computing. The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done. Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of user interface with repetitive clicking around and menus. The problem is with shoving AI down user's throats. Make it an option, not the only option.
  - gjsman-1000 7mo ago
    We've already been through this when people a decade ago thought voice was the future of the computer. When that completely didn't work, we thought that augmented reality was the future of the computer, which also didn't work out. You need a screen to be able to verify what you're doing (try shopping on Amazon without a screen), which means you also need a UI around it, which then means voice (and by extension agents which also function by conversation) is slower and dumber than the UI, every time. Meanwhile I have yet to see any brand excited to be integrated with ChatGPT and Claude. Unlike a consumer; being a purely "reasoning-based" agent, they're most likely to ignore everything aesthetic and pick the bottom of the barrel cheapest option for any category. How do you convince an AI to show your specific product to a customer? You don't.
  - as1mov 7mo ago
    > The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done. I think you and I have very different meanings of "intelligent", "understands" and "gets it done"
  - MeetingsBrowser 7mo ago
    What would an agentic UX look like that is better than the current OS experience? typing "open hackernews" into copilot instead of clicking the browser and typing hackernews? 99% of OS interactions already boil down to 2 clicks and a search phrase.
    - owlmirror 7mo ago
      - "summarize the discussions on hacker news of last week based on what I would find interesting". - "Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest different options" - "Look at my household budget and find ways to be more frugal." There are thousands of things I can think of when it comes to how an agentic OS would work better than the current Screen Keyboard paradigm. I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these things I already do with these tools.
      - dijksterhuis 7mo ago
        > I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these things I already do with these tools. huh? ... this reads to me like you don't need an "agentic" OS to do the things you'd want to use an "agentic" OS for..? like... it seems you just don't want a keyboard to do the same things you've already been doing? ... is that the crux of it?
      - MeetingsBrowser 7mo ago
        Neither of those really have to do with the OS though. For example: > Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest different options What part of this does an agentic OS help with? My OS doesn't know my travel preferences, family size, work schedule, etc. These are more appropriate tasks for a smart assistant. What specifically does an agentic OS UX look like beyond giving claude access to local files and a browser?
        owlmirror 7mo ago
        >What specifically does an agentic OS UX look like beyond giving claude access to local files and a browser? Providing the structure of a unified framework: APIs, safeguards, routing to the appropriate model or pipeline, and controlled access to devices and data. The capability is already there. What’s missing is a sane permission system that operates at the level of intent. Having used OpenClaw, that’s IMO the missing piece. It’s a fun experience, but in its current state I would not trust it to autonomously run any meaningful part of my life. UX-wise, chat is kind of a crutch. It’s slow and inherently limiting. I imagine something closer to a natural, ongoing conversation paired with an execution layer: some sort of approval or review dashboard where planned actions are ready for approval or returned for refinment before they happen. Probably with a conservative moderator agent in the loop that flags things based on preferences and hard-coded policies. Calling it an OS isn’t accurate, I agree. But that's how people will perceive it. Most people already think of the application layer on Android as "the OS," not the kernel or drivers. This will be the first-class interface on your device, so that’s what it gets called. It doesn’t mean browsers or dedicated applications go away. Three years ago I would not have thought the IDE would stop being the application I spend most of my time in. Now it’s mostly a passive code viewer and Git browser. Compare that to everyday workflows. Researching anything still feels incredibly antiquated. Buying a phone, planning a vacation, comparing options means opening dozens of tabs, copy-pasting specs or prices into spreadsheets, reading through fine print, dealing with low-quality or honestly untrustworthy reviews, checking distances manually on maps. It’s boring and tedious work. Meanwhile, in a professional life, these systems already behave like a team of secretaries: always available, reasonably competent, and scalable. Not perfect, but easily good enough to offload a huge amount of cognitive overhead.
  - ACow_Adonis 7mo ago
    Even theoretical AI still has the other mind problem from economics. Communicating and predicting desires, preferences, thoughts, feelings from one mind to another is difficult. Fundamentally the easiest way of getting what you want is to be able to do it yourself. Introduce an agent, and now you get the same utility issues of trying to guess what gifts to buy someone for their birthday. Sure every now and then you get the marketers "surprise and delight", but the main experience is relatively middling, often frustrating and confusing, and if you have any skill or knowledge in The area or ability to do it yourself, ultimately frustrating.
  - Ucalegon 7mo ago
    It all depends on where the the AI is running. The problem with the idea, is that for the majority of Windows boxes where it would be running do not have the bare metal hardware to support local models and thus it would be in the cloud and all of the issues associated with that when it comes to privacy/security. It would be neat, given MSFT's footprint, to look to develop small models, running locally, with user transparency when it comes to actions, but that doesn't align with MSFT's core objectives.
    - okokwhatever 7mo ago
      Five stars comment
    - wmf 7mo ago
      AFAIK the existing Copilot features always use the NPU and do not fall back to the cloud. Given that Windows 12 will require an NPU I don't see why it would fall back either.
      - Ucalegon 7mo ago
        This is true for only features of Copilot+. The issue that MSFT faces, especially as it pushes Copilot EVERYWHERE is the reality of the majority if the hardware running Windows does not, and will not have, the NPU required for 12, nor is there the actual consumer purchasing power, to upgrade hardware to have an NPU. This a reality that MSFT just does not seem want to deal with while the push the technology onto consumers because its not based off of the reality of the install base they are dealing with but rather trying to justify their strategic investment into AI in the B2C space without doing the proper product market fit to justify it.
  - fainpul 7mo ago
    I think something like this is the goal, and there's still a long way to go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV01B5kVsC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV01B5kVsC0
  - lich_king 7mo ago
    > The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done. Maybe? For a couple of decades, we believed that computers you can talk to are the future of computing. Every sci-fi show worth a dime perpetuated that trope. And yet, even though the technology is here, we still usually prefer to read and type. We might find out the same with some of the everyday uses of agentic tech: it may be less work to do something than to express your desires to an agent perfectly well. For example, agentic shopping is a use case some companies are focusing on, but I can't imagine it being easier to describe my sock taste preferences to an agent than click around for 5 minutes and find the stripe pattern I like. And that's if we ignore that agents today are basically chaos monkeys that sometimes do what you want, sometimes rm -rf /, and sometimes spend all your money on a cryptocurrency scam. So for the foreseeable future, I most certainly don't want my OS to be "agentic". I want it to be deterministic until you figure out the chaos monkey stuff.
    - threetonesun 7mo ago
      I think your last paragraph is the real issue that will forever crush improvements over clicking on stuff. Once you get to "buy me socks" you're just entering some different advertising domain. We already see it with very simple things like getting Siri to play a song. Two songs with the same name, the more popular one will win, apply that simple logic to everything and put a pay to play model in it and there's your "agentic" OS of the future.
      - Forgeties79 7mo ago
        Exactly. It would be like making all your purchasing decisions based on the first hit you get on Google
    - slopinthebag 7mo ago
      > it may be less work to do something than to express your desires to an agent perfectly well As I use AI more and more to write code I find myself just implementing something myself more and more for this reason. By the time I have actually explained what I want in precise detail it's often faster to have just made the change myself. Without enough detail SOTA models can often still get something working, but it's usually not the desired approach and causes problems later.
  - the_snooze 7mo ago
    We’ve had computing technology that clearly understands what the user wants to do. It’s called a command line interface. No guessing, no recommendations, no dark patterns, no bullshit.
    - anonymars 7mo ago
      "I just ran rm -rf /* accidentally, but I meant rm -rf ./* (notice the star after the slash)." https://serverfault.com/questions/337082/ https://serverfault.com/questions/337082/
  - cyberax 7mo ago
    There's nothing wrong with an "agentic OS" if it's built on top of a regular good OS. There's everything wrong when "agentic" means that the regular bread-and-butter functionality of the OS becomes unusable.
    - chokolad 7mo ago
      > There's everything wrong when "agentic" means that the regular bread-and-butter functionality of the OS becomes unusable Can you provide an example of agentic functionality in Windows making regular bread-and-butter functionality become unusable?
      - cyberax 7mo ago
        Copilot in Notepad.
  - maplethorpe 7mo ago
    "Agentic typewriters are the future of typewriting. The idea is that something intelligent understands what you want to type and types it for you. Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of typewriter interfaces with repetitive key taps and carriage returns." See how that sounds a bit silly? It's because it presents a false dichotomy. That our choice is between either the current state of interfaces or an agentic system which strips away your autonomy and does it for you.
- runjake 7mo ago
  I can't upvote this comment enough. The only thing I'd add is that not only did he tweet the infamous tweet that caused the backlash, Pavan ridiculed those in the backlash (since deleted). Also, Satya still spews the same "agentic OS" narrative as recent as last week. So, I hope for the best, but I don't plan on taking them at their word.
  - iknowstuff 7mo ago
    I missed the drama! https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-president-confirms-os-will-become-ai-agentic-generates-push-back-online https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-... this thing?
- dgxyz 7mo ago
  Everyone at MSFT who is senior is a lying piece of shit these days. I remember on here Satya being treated like the second coming of Jesus due to his promises. Any comments against him were downvoted. Look where we are now.
- mrktf 7mo ago
  I agree and sadly I wouldn't hold hopes to see actual meaningful changes (granted - last time had windows was win 7), My reasoning is from bitter experience. I saw too many these honest talks/commitments - it always this pattern when product/company starts to decline. Suddenly somebody with technical background shows up talks about past mistakes and what need to fix. Even sometimes holds discussion, which is usually very reasonable. But as time goes there only cosmetic changes with excuses like lack of resources, market wind changed this time, too hard make changes due politics and etc.
  - keyringlight 7mo ago
    Something that comes to mind for me is the old Bill Gates trustworthy computing memo [0], from the era when early windows xp was getting flak for poor security. That was supposedly the turning point where they started those overhauls towards service pack 2 and likewise added a security focus in other products, and they decided they couldn't sneak in easter egg flight simulators into excel any more because it just added opportunities for flaws. What stands out to me is the organization needs to be accept that change is needed and 'walk the walk', and also that those efforts take time. I've no idea what things are in motion in MS, but I wonder how quickly they can turn the ship, how much momentum is in their current direction and how much force is in turning. Moving the taskbar seems like addressing a loud persistent talking point, but it's one among many. What's the timeline (even though windows version timing seems like 'when they need branding')? Win12? Win13? [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20020204233701/http://www.computerbytesman.com/security/billsmemo.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20020204233701/http://www.comput...
- anonymars 7mo ago
  Yeah, as soon as I saw the author, my optimism faded back to cynicism
darig 7mo ago
[dead]
gjsman-1000 7mo ago
> They're saying all the right things here. They are not saying "we will remove the mandate to use a Microsoft Account." By itself, that shows their "care" is purely corporate, likely driven to calm down furious OEMs who will happily remind them Apple doesn't need an Apple Account to use a now-cheap Mac. Also, because Nadella can't stand the word, I'll say it right here: Microslop is still making Winslop to help people make Officeslop to then upload to Slopdrive.
- Someone1234 7mo ago
  Good point, and that one has actually caused logistical headaches. If someone tries to set up a new out-of-box computer without an internet connect, well, you just cannot. Even the previously working bypass has been removed in a recent update. And, yes, I am aware that Pro/Enterprise don't suffer from this, but a LOT of computers sold are Windows Home/OEM licenses. It impacts a ton of people.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- bigstrat2003 7mo ago
  They also aren't saying "we're going to prioritize performance and make sure that when we rewrite functionality, it performs just as well as what it's replacing". Color me skeptical that they actually care about quality.
itopaloglu83 7mo ago
I'm sorry but I need to see it to believe it. Otherwise who can explain, how the Windows Explorer struggles to list 20 files. How is it even possible to spend 4-5 seconds to show a list of files in a local freaking folder?
- rdedev 7mo ago
  Right now my start menu randomly crashes. Like all I see is a black box with no icons. I'm impressed with how even basic functionalities break pretty often
  - itopaloglu83 7mo ago
    Reminds me of the new task manager not responding. Like really?
- matheusmoreira 7mo ago
  The Windows computer I have to use at work takes over 15 seconds to start the new calculator app. The old calculator launched instantly.
  - Someone1234 7mo ago
    I've seen that too. I discovered Calculator was doing a DNS lookup for some reason, and that slow DNS resolution was the cause... That's a why, but it raises more questions than it does answers.
    - 9991 7mo ago
      Arithmetic may have updated.
      - evilduck 7mo ago
        Nah, analytics. Some PM needs to know which operands are most used so they can optimize the calculator layout to improve the UX. And for the least used operands, they'll take a pragmatic stance and remove them to clean up the interface.
winwang 7mo ago
...I almost thought it was a parody site!
malfist 7mo ago
Are they? I see nothing about privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts and continued locking down of windows that they've been doing. I see that they're bringing back _some_ of the taskbar options you had in windows 10 (termed it as "introducing"), they promise to make Explorer faster, great. But they also say they're bringing more AI into windows and something about widgets that I don't think anyone cares about. And lastly they're promising to revamp the place where you go to rant at microsoft, but they're not promising to actually listen to feedback.
- wmf 7mo ago
  privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts... Yep. That stuff makes money (via upsells) so it will never be removed.
- senfiaj 7mo ago
  Yep, wanted to write the same thing. I remember 2 occasions when even Windows 10 Pro attempted to force me to login into MS account when booting my Laptop. Somehow I skipped it (I don't remember well what I did, since obviously they made it unintuitive). Much later I eventually logged into the account just to buy Minecraft, but boy, this sudden forcing to use MS accounts during the boot was so disgusting. I guess this is becoming much worse now. After learning that MS is making harder and harder to setup local account (eventually it will become impossible?) and even Notepad can ask for MS account, I deleted Windows and installed Ubuntu. Online accounts are fine when optional, but unacceptable when forced.
- mexicocitinluez 7mo ago
  From the article: "focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted". Can you imagine actually using that as an excuse when managing one of the most important software companies in the world? I'm just in awe at how little self-relfectio they have at that company. The implication is that they weren't focused on "genuinely useful and well-crafted" features 40 years into their company's history and it's unbelievable to read.
  - darthwalsh 7mo ago
karel-3d 7mo ago
it's funny because from Apple side, the OS is not that rosy either, it's buggier it has ever been. (that's an overstatement, early OS X were buggy too, but they just switched to Unix after OS9, so, understandable.) it's just better than Windows, which is just aggressively bad. (and I guess Linux is eating their gamers market with Proton? but I am not a gamer)
- thewebguyd 7mo ago
  Can't help but feel like Microsoft is getting pressured by the laptop OEMs to make Windows not suck, because of the MacBook Neo is going to eat all their lunches.
  - philistine 7mo ago
    It's death by a thousand cuts for Windows. - The OS is getting buggier, with every large update getting press coverage on scary bugs. - The OS is getting overbearing; constant nagging for upsells on Microsoft products with terrible attach rates. - The OS is getting focused on hype; the latest trend is AI?Let's force a new button on people that will break decades-old workflows. Let's put AI everywhere. - The OS is getting slow; there's no focus on speed and the place where 85% of the market resides (laptops) is getting completely trounced by Apple Silicon. - The OS is getting squeezed; under 300$ it's all terrible e-waste in six months Chromebooks. Over 500$ Apple is aggressively entering the market with the Neo. Over 1,000$ Apple has owned a commanding share of the profits there for decades. There are 994 more problems with Windows but I've made my point; there's just no end in sight to the problems with Windows. I haven't mentioned it's become a minor part of Microsoft's profits!
kiicia 7mo ago
This is just cheap damage control, just wait and see if they actually do all of those things correctly. Slow file explorer was an issue since very beginning of windows 11 and they "fix" it only now? But they took time to add copilot to snippet tool?
naikrovek 7mo ago
An optimist! I love to see it. Saying and doing are very different. They have passed through the "fuck around" phase, and are entering the "find out" phase of this AI journey. Lots of companies are, suddenly. My employer trained us all on the Gartner hype cycle, tested us on how to remain level-headed before and during the peak of unreasonable expectations and now every single manager in the company is drooling over AI, saying that "this is the future, join us or find another job" and I cannot wait for the curve to come back down to a sane level where intelligence rules behavior as much as it used to. We'll see. We’ve certainly done the “fucking around” and now we'll see if we "find out" enough to regain our sanity and our humanity.
jacquesm 7mo ago
All this means is that it will go underwater.
crispinb 7mo ago
> They're saying all the right things here .. No. "Commitment" in corporate speak is a synonym for "absolute lack of intention". That's why corps 'commit' to reducing emissions, treating employees fairly, etc, ie. to all the things they will not do. But no suit 'commits' to making money. They just make money. It's just a superficial linguistic gesture. Shakespeare got it.
schubart 7mo ago
> Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth. Every day, we hear from the community about how you experience Windows. And over the past several months, the team and I have spent a great deal of time analyzing your feedback. What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better. They are not even acknowledging that feedback is negative. They make it sound like a love fest where users love windows so much that they want to make it even better.
Mr_Minderbinder 7mo ago
> improvements to Windows Update Even with their proposed “improvements” to Windows Update it would remain inferior in principle to what it was in Windows 7 (or 8 which I never used) and prior when you could “pause” updates indefinitely or, in non-dystopian terms, refuse them. If a third party, even one that you trust, can mandate changes to the software on your computer, then it is not really your computer.
heresie-dabord 7mo ago
> They're saying all the right things here. That's what a corporation does.

binsquare 7mo ago

Don't congratulate yet until you see actual outcomes. The author of this commitment is the same person (Pavan Davuluri) spearheading move of Windows into an Agentic OS: https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-president-confirms-os-will-become-ai-agentic-generates-push-back-online https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...

xvector 7mo ago
Absolutely nothing wrong with an "agentic OS", agentic UX is the future of personal computing. The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done. Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of user interface with repetitive clicking around and menus. The problem is with shoving AI down user's throats. Make it an option, not the only option.
- gjsman-1000 7mo ago
  We've already been through this when people a decade ago thought voice was the future of the computer. When that completely didn't work, we thought that augmented reality was the future of the computer, which also didn't work out. You need a screen to be able to verify what you're doing (try shopping on Amazon without a screen), which means you also need a UI around it, which then means voice (and by extension agents which also function by conversation) is slower and dumber than the UI, every time. Meanwhile I have yet to see any brand excited to be integrated with ChatGPT and Claude. Unlike a consumer; being a purely "reasoning-based" agent, they're most likely to ignore everything aesthetic and pick the bottom of the barrel cheapest option for any category. How do you convince an AI to show your specific product to a customer? You don't.
- as1mov 7mo ago
  > The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done. I think you and I have very different meanings of "intelligent", "understands" and "gets it done"
- MeetingsBrowser 7mo ago
  What would an agentic UX look like that is better than the current OS experience? typing "open hackernews" into copilot instead of clicking the browser and typing hackernews? 99% of OS interactions already boil down to 2 clicks and a search phrase.
  - owlmirror 7mo ago
    - "summarize the discussions on hacker news of last week based on what I would find interesting". - "Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest different options" - "Look at my household budget and find ways to be more frugal." There are thousands of things I can think of when it comes to how an agentic OS would work better than the current Screen Keyboard paradigm. I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these things I already do with these tools.
    - dijksterhuis 7mo ago
      > I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these things I already do with these tools. huh? ... this reads to me like you don't need an "agentic" OS to do the things you'd want to use an "agentic" OS for..? like... it seems you just don't want a keyboard to do the same things you've already been doing? ... is that the crux of it?
    - MeetingsBrowser 7mo ago
      Neither of those really have to do with the OS though. For example: > Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest different options What part of this does an agentic OS help with? My OS doesn't know my travel preferences, family size, work schedule, etc. These are more appropriate tasks for a smart assistant. What specifically does an agentic OS UX look like beyond giving claude access to local files and a browser?
      - owlmirror 7mo ago
        >What specifically does an agentic OS UX look like beyond giving claude access to local files and a browser? Providing the structure of a unified framework: APIs, safeguards, routing to the appropriate model or pipeline, and controlled access to devices and data. The capability is already there. What’s missing is a sane permission system that operates at the level of intent. Having used OpenClaw, that’s IMO the missing piece. It’s a fun experience, but in its current state I would not trust it to autonomously run any meaningful part of my life. UX-wise, chat is kind of a crutch. It’s slow and inherently limiting. I imagine something closer to a natural, ongoing conversation paired with an execution layer: some sort of approval or review dashboard where planned actions are ready for approval or returned for refinment before they happen. Probably with a conservative moderator agent in the loop that flags things based on preferences and hard-coded policies. Calling it an OS isn’t accurate, I agree. But that's how people will perceive it. Most people already think of the application layer on Android as "the OS," not the kernel or drivers. This will be the first-class interface on your device, so that’s what it gets called. It doesn’t mean browsers or dedicated applications go away. Three years ago I would not have thought the IDE would stop being the application I spend most of my time in. Now it’s mostly a passive code viewer and Git browser. Compare that to everyday workflows. Researching anything still feels incredibly antiquated. Buying a phone, planning a vacation, comparing options means opening dozens of tabs, copy-pasting specs or prices into spreadsheets, reading through fine print, dealing with low-quality or honestly untrustworthy reviews, checking distances manually on maps. It’s boring and tedious work. Meanwhile, in a professional life, these systems already behave like a team of secretaries: always available, reasonably competent, and scalable. Not perfect, but easily good enough to offload a huge amount of cognitive overhead.
- ACow_Adonis 7mo ago
  Even theoretical AI still has the other mind problem from economics. Communicating and predicting desires, preferences, thoughts, feelings from one mind to another is difficult. Fundamentally the easiest way of getting what you want is to be able to do it yourself. Introduce an agent, and now you get the same utility issues of trying to guess what gifts to buy someone for their birthday. Sure every now and then you get the marketers "surprise and delight", but the main experience is relatively middling, often frustrating and confusing, and if you have any skill or knowledge in The area or ability to do it yourself, ultimately frustrating.
- Ucalegon 7mo ago
  It all depends on where the the AI is running. The problem with the idea, is that for the majority of Windows boxes where it would be running do not have the bare metal hardware to support local models and thus it would be in the cloud and all of the issues associated with that when it comes to privacy/security. It would be neat, given MSFT's footprint, to look to develop small models, running locally, with user transparency when it comes to actions, but that doesn't align with MSFT's core objectives.
  - okokwhatever 7mo ago
    Five stars comment
  - wmf 7mo ago
    AFAIK the existing Copilot features always use the NPU and do not fall back to the cloud. Given that Windows 12 will require an NPU I don't see why it would fall back either.
    - Ucalegon 7mo ago
      This is true for only features of Copilot+. The issue that MSFT faces, especially as it pushes Copilot EVERYWHERE is the reality of the majority if the hardware running Windows does not, and will not have, the NPU required for 12, nor is there the actual consumer purchasing power, to upgrade hardware to have an NPU. This a reality that MSFT just does not seem want to deal with while the push the technology onto consumers because its not based off of the reality of the install base they are dealing with but rather trying to justify their strategic investment into AI in the B2C space without doing the proper product market fit to justify it.
- fainpul 7mo ago
  I think something like this is the goal, and there's still a long way to go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV01B5kVsC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV01B5kVsC0
- lich_king 7mo ago
  > The ideal is that something intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done. Maybe? For a couple of decades, we believed that computers you can talk to are the future of computing. Every sci-fi show worth a dime perpetuated that trope. And yet, even though the technology is here, we still usually prefer to read and type. We might find out the same with some of the everyday uses of agentic tech: it may be less work to do something than to express your desires to an agent perfectly well. For example, agentic shopping is a use case some companies are focusing on, but I can't imagine it being easier to describe my sock taste preferences to an agent than click around for 5 minutes and find the stripe pattern I like. And that's if we ignore that agents today are basically chaos monkeys that sometimes do what you want, sometimes rm -rf /, and sometimes spend all your money on a cryptocurrency scam. So for the foreseeable future, I most certainly don't want my OS to be "agentic". I want it to be deterministic until you figure out the chaos monkey stuff.
  - threetonesun 7mo ago
    I think your last paragraph is the real issue that will forever crush improvements over clicking on stuff. Once you get to "buy me socks" you're just entering some different advertising domain. We already see it with very simple things like getting Siri to play a song. Two songs with the same name, the more popular one will win, apply that simple logic to everything and put a pay to play model in it and there's your "agentic" OS of the future.
    - Forgeties79 7mo ago
      Exactly. It would be like making all your purchasing decisions based on the first hit you get on Google
  - slopinthebag 7mo ago
    > it may be less work to do something than to express your desires to an agent perfectly well As I use AI more and more to write code I find myself just implementing something myself more and more for this reason. By the time I have actually explained what I want in precise detail it's often faster to have just made the change myself. Without enough detail SOTA models can often still get something working, but it's usually not the desired approach and causes problems later.
- the_snooze 7mo ago
  We’ve had computing technology that clearly understands what the user wants to do. It’s called a command line interface. No guessing, no recommendations, no dark patterns, no bullshit.
  - anonymars 7mo ago
    "I just ran rm -rf /* accidentally, but I meant rm -rf ./* (notice the star after the slash)." https://serverfault.com/questions/337082/ https://serverfault.com/questions/337082/
- cyberax 7mo ago
  There's nothing wrong with an "agentic OS" if it's built on top of a regular good OS. There's everything wrong when "agentic" means that the regular bread-and-butter functionality of the OS becomes unusable.
  - chokolad 7mo ago
    > There's everything wrong when "agentic" means that the regular bread-and-butter functionality of the OS becomes unusable Can you provide an example of agentic functionality in Windows making regular bread-and-butter functionality become unusable?
    - cyberax 7mo ago
      Copilot in Notepad.
- maplethorpe 7mo ago
  "Agentic typewriters are the future of typewriting. The idea is that something intelligent understands what you want to type and types it for you. Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of typewriter interfaces with repetitive key taps and carriage returns." See how that sounds a bit silly? It's because it presents a false dichotomy. That our choice is between either the current state of interfaces or an agentic system which strips away your autonomy and does it for you.
runjake 7mo ago
I can't upvote this comment enough. The only thing I'd add is that not only did he tweet the infamous tweet that caused the backlash, Pavan ridiculed those in the backlash (since deleted). Also, Satya still spews the same "agentic OS" narrative as recent as last week. So, I hope for the best, but I don't plan on taking them at their word.
- iknowstuff 7mo ago
  I missed the drama! https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-president-confirms-os-will-become-ai-agentic-generates-push-back-online https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-... this thing?
dgxyz 7mo ago
Everyone at MSFT who is senior is a lying piece of shit these days. I remember on here Satya being treated like the second coming of Jesus due to his promises. Any comments against him were downvoted. Look where we are now.
mrktf 7mo ago
I agree and sadly I wouldn't hold hopes to see actual meaningful changes (granted - last time had windows was win 7), My reasoning is from bitter experience. I saw too many these honest talks/commitments - it always this pattern when product/company starts to decline. Suddenly somebody with technical background shows up talks about past mistakes and what need to fix. Even sometimes holds discussion, which is usually very reasonable. But as time goes there only cosmetic changes with excuses like lack of resources, market wind changed this time, too hard make changes due politics and etc.
- keyringlight 7mo ago
  Something that comes to mind for me is the old Bill Gates trustworthy computing memo [0], from the era when early windows xp was getting flak for poor security. That was supposedly the turning point where they started those overhauls towards service pack 2 and likewise added a security focus in other products, and they decided they couldn't sneak in easter egg flight simulators into excel any more because it just added opportunities for flaws. What stands out to me is the organization needs to be accept that change is needed and 'walk the walk', and also that those efforts take time. I've no idea what things are in motion in MS, but I wonder how quickly they can turn the ship, how much momentum is in their current direction and how much force is in turning. Moving the taskbar seems like addressing a loud persistent talking point, but it's one among many. What's the timeline (even though windows version timing seems like 'when they need branding')? Win12? Win13? [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20020204233701/http://www.computerbytesman.com/security/billsmemo.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20020204233701/http://www.comput...
anonymars 7mo ago
Yeah, as soon as I saw the author, my optimism faded back to cynicism

darig 7mo ago

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gjsman-1000 7mo ago

> They're saying all the right things here. They are not saying "we will remove the mandate to use a Microsoft Account." By itself, that shows their "care" is purely corporate, likely driven to calm down furious OEMs who will happily remind them Apple doesn't need an Apple Account to use a now-cheap Mac. Also, because Nadella can't stand the word, I'll say it right here: Microslop is still making Winslop to help people make Officeslop to then upload to Slopdrive.

Someone1234 7mo ago
Good point, and that one has actually caused logistical headaches. If someone tries to set up a new out-of-box computer without an internet connect, well, you just cannot. Even the previously working bypass has been removed in a recent update. And, yes, I am aware that Pro/Enterprise don't suffer from this, but a LOT of computers sold are Windows Home/OEM licenses. It impacts a ton of people.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
bigstrat2003 7mo ago
They also aren't saying "we're going to prioritize performance and make sure that when we rewrite functionality, it performs just as well as what it's replacing". Color me skeptical that they actually care about quality.

itopaloglu83 7mo ago

I'm sorry but I need to see it to believe it. Otherwise who can explain, how the Windows Explorer struggles to list 20 files. How is it even possible to spend 4-5 seconds to show a list of files in a local freaking folder?

rdedev 7mo ago
Right now my start menu randomly crashes. Like all I see is a black box with no icons. I'm impressed with how even basic functionalities break pretty often
- itopaloglu83 7mo ago
  Reminds me of the new task manager not responding. Like really?
matheusmoreira 7mo ago
The Windows computer I have to use at work takes over 15 seconds to start the new calculator app. The old calculator launched instantly.
- Someone1234 7mo ago
  I've seen that too. I discovered Calculator was doing a DNS lookup for some reason, and that slow DNS resolution was the cause... That's a why, but it raises more questions than it does answers.
  - 9991 7mo ago
    Arithmetic may have updated.
    - evilduck 7mo ago
      Nah, analytics. Some PM needs to know which operands are most used so they can optimize the calculator layout to improve the UX. And for the least used operands, they'll take a pragmatic stance and remove them to clean up the interface.

winwang 7mo ago

...I almost thought it was a parody site!

malfist 7mo ago

Are they? I see nothing about privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts and continued locking down of windows that they've been doing. I see that they're bringing back _some_ of the taskbar options you had in windows 10 (termed it as "introducing"), they promise to make Explorer faster, great. But they also say they're bringing more AI into windows and something about widgets that I don't think anyone cares about. And lastly they're promising to revamp the place where you go to rant at microsoft, but they're not promising to actually listen to feedback.

wmf 7mo ago
privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts... Yep. That stuff makes money (via upsells) so it will never be removed.
senfiaj 7mo ago
Yep, wanted to write the same thing. I remember 2 occasions when even Windows 10 Pro attempted to force me to login into MS account when booting my Laptop. Somehow I skipped it (I don't remember well what I did, since obviously they made it unintuitive). Much later I eventually logged into the account just to buy Minecraft, but boy, this sudden forcing to use MS accounts during the boot was so disgusting. I guess this is becoming much worse now. After learning that MS is making harder and harder to setup local account (eventually it will become impossible?) and even Notepad can ask for MS account, I deleted Windows and installed Ubuntu. Online accounts are fine when optional, but unacceptable when forced.
mexicocitinluez 7mo ago
From the article: "focusing on experiences that are genuinely useful and well‑crafted". Can you imagine actually using that as an excuse when managing one of the most important software companies in the world? I'm just in awe at how little self-relfectio they have at that company. The implication is that they weren't focused on "genuinely useful and well-crafted" features 40 years into their company's history and it's unbelievable to read.
- darthwalsh 7mo ago

karel-3d 7mo ago

it's funny because from Apple side, the OS is not that rosy either, it's buggier it has ever been. (that's an overstatement, early OS X were buggy too, but they just switched to Unix after OS9, so, understandable.) it's just better than Windows, which is just aggressively bad. (and I guess Linux is eating their gamers market with Proton? but I am not a gamer)

thewebguyd 7mo ago
Can't help but feel like Microsoft is getting pressured by the laptop OEMs to make Windows not suck, because of the MacBook Neo is going to eat all their lunches.
- philistine 7mo ago
  It's death by a thousand cuts for Windows. - The OS is getting buggier, with every large update getting press coverage on scary bugs. - The OS is getting overbearing; constant nagging for upsells on Microsoft products with terrible attach rates. - The OS is getting focused on hype; the latest trend is AI?Let's force a new button on people that will break decades-old workflows. Let's put AI everywhere. - The OS is getting slow; there's no focus on speed and the place where 85% of the market resides (laptops) is getting completely trounced by Apple Silicon. - The OS is getting squeezed; under 300$ it's all terrible e-waste in six months Chromebooks. Over 500$ Apple is aggressively entering the market with the Neo. Over 1,000$ Apple has owned a commanding share of the profits there for decades. There are 994 more problems with Windows but I've made my point; there's just no end in sight to the problems with Windows. I haven't mentioned it's become a minor part of Microsoft's profits!

kiicia 7mo ago

This is just cheap damage control, just wait and see if they actually do all of those things correctly. Slow file explorer was an issue since very beginning of windows 11 and they "fix" it only now? But they took time to add copilot to snippet tool?

naikrovek 7mo ago

An optimist! I love to see it. Saying and doing are very different. They have passed through the "fuck around" phase, and are entering the "find out" phase of this AI journey. Lots of companies are, suddenly. My employer trained us all on the Gartner hype cycle, tested us on how to remain level-headed before and during the peak of unreasonable expectations and now every single manager in the company is drooling over AI, saying that "this is the future, join us or find another job" and I cannot wait for the curve to come back down to a sane level where intelligence rules behavior as much as it used to. We'll see. We’ve certainly done the “fucking around” and now we'll see if we "find out" enough to regain our sanity and our humanity.

jacquesm 7mo ago

All this means is that it will go underwater.

crispinb 7mo ago

> They're saying all the right things here .. No. "Commitment" in corporate speak is a synonym for "absolute lack of intention". That's why corps 'commit' to reducing emissions, treating employees fairly, etc, ie. to all the things they will not do. But no suit 'commits' to making money. They just make money. It's just a superficial linguistic gesture. Shakespeare got it.

schubart 7mo ago

> Windows touches more people’s lives than almost any technology on Earth. Every day, we hear from the community about how you experience Windows. And over the past several months, the team and I have spent a great deal of time analyzing your feedback. What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about Windows and want it to be better. They are not even acknowledging that feedback is negative. They make it sound like a love fest where users love windows so much that they want to make it even better.

Mr_Minderbinder 7mo ago

> improvements to Windows Update Even with their proposed “improvements” to Windows Update it would remain inferior in principle to what it was in Windows 7 (or 8 which I never used) and prior when you could “pause” updates indefinitely or, in non-dystopian terms, refuse them. If a third party, even one that you trust, can mandate changes to the software on your computer, then it is not really your computer.

heresie-dabord 7mo ago

> They're saying all the right things here. That's what a corporation does.