5 ms·

Where is EU protectionist? I feel we are way less protectionist than most other Economic Regions. Including the USA, which are very protectionist but always cl

Where is EU protectionist? I feel we are way less protectionist than most other Economic Regions. Including the USA, which are very protectionist but always claim otherwise

philipallstar 7mo ago
Well, if every big company gets a giant EU fine for, say, preinstalling a web browser in an OS, except for EU companies, that could make it easier for the EU companies.
- sofixa 7mo ago
  Every company would get fined for anticompetitive behaviour, regardless of where are based.
  - wqaatwt 7mo ago
    Well yes, but because there are approximately zero EU tech companies that can be affected by these fines and regulations there is very little political pushback against them. In a certain sense it’s a way for EU to clawback at least a small slice of all that money flowing to the US.
    - sofixa 7mo ago
      https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/personalised-advertising-french-sa-fined-criteo-eur-40000000_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/personali...
    - hermanzegerman 7mo ago
      Why should there be pushback against antitrust measures? It's what keeps markets alive
      - philipallstar 7mo ago
        Well, not necessarily; lots of things keep markets alive, including making it easier for people to start companies. But that aside, it's the selective enforcement of antitrust measures that's my point.
        hermanzegerman 7mo ago
        Where is the selective enforcement? They also enforce antitrust in other sectors than big tech. You just don't read that much about it in the news
        sofixa 7mo ago
        > Well, not necessarily; lots of things keep markets alive, including making it easier for people to start companies If those companies then got smothered or acquired by big oligo/mono polies, that only gets you so far. > it's the selective enforcement of antitrust measures that's my point What is selective about it? I linked in the sibling comment a fine for the biggest European digital ad company. And it's trivial to find the EU blocking anticompetitive behaviour or potential for it in every domain. Alstom and Siemens wanted to merge their train division to create a European champion in train manufacturing to better compete with Chinese companies, and they got denied. Because for the EU competition in Europe is more important than EU companies being able to compete globally (because the EU market is in their purview, global ones are not).
brabel 7mo ago
Well different discussion, but look at the Mercosur agreement and all the opposition from farmers in the EU. They are extremely protectionist when it comes to agriculture, at least.
- hermanzegerman 7mo ago
  Yes the farmers are a very vocal and powerful minority. They get more than 50% of their income from subsidies, are quite well off, but always find a reason to complain. I was thinking more about stuff like "Buy American"-Regulations for public tenders. Stuff like that doesn't exist here
  - prmoustache 7mo ago
    Well I can certainly understand them. Based on price tgey would not be able to compete and have half decent living wages so protectionism AND subsidies is a decent strategy to maintain local production which I feel allow a country / area to not lose a lever in international negociations.
    - hermanzegerman 7mo ago
      The quotas for these products in the trade deal would have been very limited, and the opportunities for our industry far greater. It was a small vocal minority that avoided benefit for the majority
    - brabel 7mo ago
      Yes it's great for the EU, but not so great for the Mercosur, is it? The EU wants them to buy products from the EU, but if the Mercosur acted the same way as the EU does with regards to agriculture, would mean they would also "protect" their industries from "unfair EU competition" and no deal can be made at all. If you want to have commerce, you need to give some to get some. Without agriculture being included, the EU would just take and not give anything. It used to work in the colonial times, but one would hope that is behind us now.
pembrook 7mo ago
Apparently you aren't aware of the EU's deep regulatory protectionism and subsidies at both EU and country level. A small portion is legitimately about protecting consumers, but ultimately this stuff is all designed by and for EU industry. Basically all economic regions get highly protectionist when it comes to key areas like agriculture, banking, steel production, energy, automotive manufacturing, etc. On tariffs, the US is now higher, but tariffs are a tax that passes through overwhelmingly onto the consumer (by like 95%+). Given there's essentially no fully domestic US manufacturing supply chains and the US imports everything, it's a defacto VAT from the perspective of the consumer. The EU has VAT levels that are still much higher than the average US tariff level, which is a essentially a dampener on consumption.
- hermanzegerman 7mo ago
  But the VAT applies to all goods regardless where they are produced. So that's not a protectionist measure

Where is EU protectionist? I feel we are way less protectionist than most other Economic Regions. Including the USA, which are very protectionist but always claim otherwise

philipallstar 7mo ago

Well, if every big company gets a giant EU fine for, say, preinstalling a web browser in an OS, except for EU companies, that could make it easier for the EU companies.

sofixa 7mo ago
Every company would get fined for anticompetitive behaviour, regardless of where are based.
- wqaatwt 7mo ago
  Well yes, but because there are approximately zero EU tech companies that can be affected by these fines and regulations there is very little political pushback against them. In a certain sense it’s a way for EU to clawback at least a small slice of all that money flowing to the US.
  - sofixa 7mo ago
    https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/personalised-advertising-french-sa-fined-criteo-eur-40000000_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/news/national-news/2023/personali...
  - hermanzegerman 7mo ago
    Why should there be pushback against antitrust measures? It's what keeps markets alive
    - philipallstar 7mo ago
      Well, not necessarily; lots of things keep markets alive, including making it easier for people to start companies. But that aside, it's the selective enforcement of antitrust measures that's my point.
      - hermanzegerman 7mo ago
        Where is the selective enforcement? They also enforce antitrust in other sectors than big tech. You just don't read that much about it in the news
      - sofixa 7mo ago
        > Well, not necessarily; lots of things keep markets alive, including making it easier for people to start companies If those companies then got smothered or acquired by big oligo/mono polies, that only gets you so far. > it's the selective enforcement of antitrust measures that's my point What is selective about it? I linked in the sibling comment a fine for the biggest European digital ad company. And it's trivial to find the EU blocking anticompetitive behaviour or potential for it in every domain. Alstom and Siemens wanted to merge their train division to create a European champion in train manufacturing to better compete with Chinese companies, and they got denied. Because for the EU competition in Europe is more important than EU companies being able to compete globally (because the EU market is in their purview, global ones are not).

brabel 7mo ago

Well different discussion, but look at the Mercosur agreement and all the opposition from farmers in the EU. They are extremely protectionist when it comes to agriculture, at least.

hermanzegerman 7mo ago
Yes the farmers are a very vocal and powerful minority. They get more than 50% of their income from subsidies, are quite well off, but always find a reason to complain. I was thinking more about stuff like "Buy American"-Regulations for public tenders. Stuff like that doesn't exist here
- prmoustache 7mo ago
  Well I can certainly understand them. Based on price tgey would not be able to compete and have half decent living wages so protectionism AND subsidies is a decent strategy to maintain local production which I feel allow a country / area to not lose a lever in international negociations.
  - hermanzegerman 7mo ago
    The quotas for these products in the trade deal would have been very limited, and the opportunities for our industry far greater. It was a small vocal minority that avoided benefit for the majority
  - brabel 7mo ago
    Yes it's great for the EU, but not so great for the Mercosur, is it? The EU wants them to buy products from the EU, but if the Mercosur acted the same way as the EU does with regards to agriculture, would mean they would also "protect" their industries from "unfair EU competition" and no deal can be made at all. If you want to have commerce, you need to give some to get some. Without agriculture being included, the EU would just take and not give anything. It used to work in the colonial times, but one would hope that is behind us now.

pembrook 7mo ago

Apparently you aren't aware of the EU's deep regulatory protectionism and subsidies at both EU and country level. A small portion is legitimately about protecting consumers, but ultimately this stuff is all designed by and for EU industry. Basically all economic regions get highly protectionist when it comes to key areas like agriculture, banking, steel production, energy, automotive manufacturing, etc. On tariffs, the US is now higher, but tariffs are a tax that passes through overwhelmingly onto the consumer (by like 95%+). Given there's essentially no fully domestic US manufacturing supply chains and the US imports everything, it's a defacto VAT from the perspective of the consumer. The EU has VAT levels that are still much higher than the average US tariff level, which is a essentially a dampener on consumption.

hermanzegerman 7mo ago
But the VAT applies to all goods regardless where they are produced. So that's not a protectionist measure