4 ms·

One thing odd, maybe just to me, is why OpenAI has been stuffing its ranks with former Facebookers who are known to juice growth, find edges, and keep people ad

One thing odd, maybe just to me, is why OpenAI has been stuffing its ranks with former Facebookers who are known to juice growth, find edges, and keep people addicted. They have little background in getting enterprises to buy into a product. Simo herself ran the Facebook app. That organization’s genius is consumer engagement: behavioral hooks, dopamine loops, the relentless optimization of the feed. You can see that in the recent iterations of ChatGPT. It has become such a sycophant, and creates answers and options, that you end up engaging with it. That’s juicing growth. Facebook style. This is because ChatGPT is gearing up to sell ads. It's the only way to sustain a free chat service in the long term. Ads require engagement and usage. Hiring former Meta employees for this is smart business - even if HN crowd doesn't like it. People say OpenAI is burning money and is on the verge of collapse. The same people will say OpenAI building an ads business on ChatGPT is "enshittifcation". These people are quite insufferable, no offense to the many who are exactly as I described.

reactordev 8mo ago
100%. It’s about to become the sleaziest used car salesman the internet has ever seen.
deanc 8mo ago
AI is ubiquitous to the point where it's permeating almost every desk job in the world. Even those who don't work are using AI to help them find work, research health problems, ask questions about their daily life. I can't think of anything else since the invention of the internet that has had this much of an impact on people's lives. People will have to pay for this. I don't see it being free for long other than a few chats a day. If most people in the world are paying 10-200 bucks a month then AI companies will make money, and I doubt they will need to rely much on ads at all.
- pipnonsense 8mo ago
  Or people are just using as much because it is free.
- bananaflag 8mo ago
  On the other hand, costs are getting lower with time. Sort of how now I have an unlimited 5G data plan for like 10 dollars, and in 2011 I didn't even have Internet on my phone. This is happening also with AI.
- sanitycheck 8mo ago
  Anecdotally I know approximately zero 'normal' (non-tech) people who are intentionally using generative AI, several who have been badly misled by Google's AI summaries, and quite a few who are vehemently anti-AI (usually artists and writers). (Except when mandated by their employers, which nobody is happy about or finds particularly useful.)
  - deanc 8mo ago
    Every single person I know outside of my profession is using it, including all relatives of all ages. Even if it's at the top of the google search results :)
- username223 8mo ago
  > I can't think of anything else since the invention of the internet that has had this much of an impact on people's lives. If you reach a bit farther back, there's opium, an impactful product with limitless demand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
DarkNova6 8mo ago
In other words, they need more experts on enshittification.
pipnonsense 8mo ago
So that’s why I am getting clickbaity last sentences in every response now at ChatGPT. Things like ”If you want, I can also show a very fast Photoshop-style trick in Krita that lets you drag-copy an area in one step (without copy/paste). It’s hidden but extremely useful.” Every single chat now has it. Not only the conversational prompt with “I can continue talking about this”, but very clickbaity terms like: almost nobody knows about this, you will be surprised, all VIPs are now using this car, do you want to know which it is? Etc
- buzzy_hacker 8mo ago
  Same here. “Do you want the one useful tip related to this topic that most people miss? It’s quite surprising.” If it were so useful, just tell me in the first place! If you say “Yes” then it’s usually just a regurgitation of your prior conversation, not actually new information. This immediately smelled of engagement bait as soon as the pattern started recently. It’s omnipresent and annoying.
  - dostick 8mo ago
    Yes, ChatGPT just recently started to add these engagement phrased follow-ups; “If you want, I can also show you one very common sign people miss that tells you…”
  - Esophagus4 8mo ago
    You can tell it not to do this in your personalized context. The model doesn’t always obey it, but 80% of the time it’s worked for me.
- jjallen 8mo ago
  This is not just OpenAI though. I don’t think this is new in general for these AI chat apps. Claude at the very least asks a question as the last part of its responses I believe every time.
- Bengalilol 8mo ago
  Those "Prompt-YES-baity" last sentences are somehow counterproductive.
Esophagus4 8mo ago
The worst are the ones who say things like “OpenAI only has 5% paying users!” As if that’s a really bad number. That is the same ratio YouTube, the world’s largest media company, has. And ChatGPT has like 800m users after only a few years of existence. And “once they sell ads, they’ll lose all their users!” As if that happened to FB, Google, YouTube, or Instagram… Some people are really rooting for the downfall of OpenAI that will simply not happen, and their rage makes them utterly unreasonable.
- username223 8mo ago
  > And “once they sell ads, they’ll lose all their users!” As if that happened to FB, Google, YouTube, or Instagram… Enshittification only works for the middleman in a two-sided market, which is what those things are. LLMs are a commodity, so their path to monopoly profit is very different.
  - Esophagus4 8mo ago
    I will check back on this comment in a year to see who was right. The only people that care about enshittification are a few crazies on HN. Google has 90% market share.
- lelanthran 8mo ago
  > And “once they sell ads, they’ll lose all their users!” As if that happened to FB, Google, YouTube, or Instagram… Don't all those examples have network effects as a moat? As in, once the userbase is in, they lose quite a lot of value by switching to a competitor. What value does a ChatGPT user lose by switching to a competitor?
  - Esophagus4 8mo ago
    Do you really believe ChatGPT will lose significant users? Do you really believe that in your heart of hearts? Or are you trying to be the HN comment contrarian?
    - 8mo ago
darth_avocado 8mo ago
> One thing odd, maybe just to me, is why OpenAI has been stuffing its ranks with former Facebookers who are known to juice growth, find edges, and keep people addicted There is a very simple answer for this: that’s how leadership ranks work in SV. When one “leader” moves from Company A to Company B, a lot of existing employees are pushed out or sidelined, and the ranks are filled with loyalists from previous companies. Sometimes this works out, but a lot of time it doesn’t and it stays that way until another “leader” is brought in. What’s good for the company doesn’t matter unless there clear incentives and targets lined out for them.
dannersy 8mo ago
> People say OpenAI is burning money and is on the verge of collapse. The same people will say OpenAI building an ads business on ChatGPT is "enshittifcation". These people are quite insufferable, no offense to the many who are exactly as I described. I guess ignore the evidence of what I can see? If it provided the value everyone says it does, then charging the amount of what you would generate for ad revenue doesn't seem like a huge ask. But that's not the objective, is it? All the players want to become the defacto AI provider, and they know bait and switch tactics is all they have. This sentiment comes off as an abusive relationship with the tech industry. Rewarding new ways to define a race to the bottom. We never demand or expect better, just gladly roll over and throw money at your new keeper. It's sad.
- aurareturn 8mo ago
  If it provided the value everyone says it does, then charging the amount of what you would generate for ad revenue doesn't seem like a huge ask. Vast majority of Youtube viewers do not pay for Premium. No one pays for Google search premium. No one pays for Instagram or Facebook or Whatsapp. There are certain class of services that work best with ads driven business model. ChatGPT is one of them. If Google and all other search engines locked search behind a subscription, it'd do a great disservice to the world since it means the poor can't use it.
  - dannersy 8mo ago
    Except that this product isn't comparable whatsoever to Youtube. Contrary to your point, there are whole businesses popping up because people are paying for search engines due to users feeling that Google's results are insufficient for serious search. I'm not sure this is a proper comparison.

reactordev 8mo ago

100%. It’s about to become the sleaziest used car salesman the internet has ever seen.

deanc 8mo ago

AI is ubiquitous to the point where it's permeating almost every desk job in the world. Even those who don't work are using AI to help them find work, research health problems, ask questions about their daily life. I can't think of anything else since the invention of the internet that has had this much of an impact on people's lives. People will have to pay for this. I don't see it being free for long other than a few chats a day. If most people in the world are paying 10-200 bucks a month then AI companies will make money, and I doubt they will need to rely much on ads at all.

pipnonsense 8mo ago
Or people are just using as much because it is free.
bananaflag 8mo ago
On the other hand, costs are getting lower with time. Sort of how now I have an unlimited 5G data plan for like 10 dollars, and in 2011 I didn't even have Internet on my phone. This is happening also with AI.
sanitycheck 8mo ago
Anecdotally I know approximately zero 'normal' (non-tech) people who are intentionally using generative AI, several who have been badly misled by Google's AI summaries, and quite a few who are vehemently anti-AI (usually artists and writers). (Except when mandated by their employers, which nobody is happy about or finds particularly useful.)
- deanc 8mo ago
  Every single person I know outside of my profession is using it, including all relatives of all ages. Even if it's at the top of the google search results :)
username223 8mo ago
> I can't think of anything else since the invention of the internet that has had this much of an impact on people's lives. If you reach a bit farther back, there's opium, an impactful product with limitless demand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

DarkNova6 8mo ago

In other words, they need more experts on enshittification.

pipnonsense 8mo ago

So that’s why I am getting clickbaity last sentences in every response now at ChatGPT. Things like ”If you want, I can also show a very fast Photoshop-style trick in Krita that lets you drag-copy an area in one step (without copy/paste). It’s hidden but extremely useful.” Every single chat now has it. Not only the conversational prompt with “I can continue talking about this”, but very clickbaity terms like: almost nobody knows about this, you will be surprised, all VIPs are now using this car, do you want to know which it is? Etc

buzzy_hacker 8mo ago
Same here. “Do you want the one useful tip related to this topic that most people miss? It’s quite surprising.” If it were so useful, just tell me in the first place! If you say “Yes” then it’s usually just a regurgitation of your prior conversation, not actually new information. This immediately smelled of engagement bait as soon as the pattern started recently. It’s omnipresent and annoying.
- dostick 8mo ago
  Yes, ChatGPT just recently started to add these engagement phrased follow-ups; “If you want, I can also show you one very common sign people miss that tells you…”
- Esophagus4 8mo ago
  You can tell it not to do this in your personalized context. The model doesn’t always obey it, but 80% of the time it’s worked for me.
jjallen 8mo ago
This is not just OpenAI though. I don’t think this is new in general for these AI chat apps. Claude at the very least asks a question as the last part of its responses I believe every time.
Bengalilol 8mo ago
Those "Prompt-YES-baity" last sentences are somehow counterproductive.

Esophagus4 8mo ago

The worst are the ones who say things like “OpenAI only has 5% paying users!” As if that’s a really bad number. That is the same ratio YouTube, the world’s largest media company, has. And ChatGPT has like 800m users after only a few years of existence. And “once they sell ads, they’ll lose all their users!” As if that happened to FB, Google, YouTube, or Instagram… Some people are really rooting for the downfall of OpenAI that will simply not happen, and their rage makes them utterly unreasonable.

username223 8mo ago
> And “once they sell ads, they’ll lose all their users!” As if that happened to FB, Google, YouTube, or Instagram… Enshittification only works for the middleman in a two-sided market, which is what those things are. LLMs are a commodity, so their path to monopoly profit is very different.
- Esophagus4 8mo ago
  I will check back on this comment in a year to see who was right. The only people that care about enshittification are a few crazies on HN. Google has 90% market share.
lelanthran 8mo ago
> And “once they sell ads, they’ll lose all their users!” As if that happened to FB, Google, YouTube, or Instagram… Don't all those examples have network effects as a moat? As in, once the userbase is in, they lose quite a lot of value by switching to a competitor. What value does a ChatGPT user lose by switching to a competitor?
- Esophagus4 8mo ago
  Do you really believe ChatGPT will lose significant users? Do you really believe that in your heart of hearts? Or are you trying to be the HN comment contrarian?
  - 8mo ago

darth_avocado 8mo ago

> One thing odd, maybe just to me, is why OpenAI has been stuffing its ranks with former Facebookers who are known to juice growth, find edges, and keep people addicted There is a very simple answer for this: that’s how leadership ranks work in SV. When one “leader” moves from Company A to Company B, a lot of existing employees are pushed out or sidelined, and the ranks are filled with loyalists from previous companies. Sometimes this works out, but a lot of time it doesn’t and it stays that way until another “leader” is brought in. What’s good for the company doesn’t matter unless there clear incentives and targets lined out for them.

dannersy 8mo ago

> People say OpenAI is burning money and is on the verge of collapse. The same people will say OpenAI building an ads business on ChatGPT is "enshittifcation". These people are quite insufferable, no offense to the many who are exactly as I described. I guess ignore the evidence of what I can see? If it provided the value everyone says it does, then charging the amount of what you would generate for ad revenue doesn't seem like a huge ask. But that's not the objective, is it? All the players want to become the defacto AI provider, and they know bait and switch tactics is all they have. This sentiment comes off as an abusive relationship with the tech industry. Rewarding new ways to define a race to the bottom. We never demand or expect better, just gladly roll over and throw money at your new keeper. It's sad.

aurareturn 8mo ago
If it provided the value everyone says it does, then charging the amount of what you would generate for ad revenue doesn't seem like a huge ask. Vast majority of Youtube viewers do not pay for Premium. No one pays for Google search premium. No one pays for Instagram or Facebook or Whatsapp. There are certain class of services that work best with ads driven business model. ChatGPT is one of them. If Google and all other search engines locked search behind a subscription, it'd do a great disservice to the world since it means the poor can't use it.
- dannersy 8mo ago
  Except that this product isn't comparable whatsoever to Youtube. Contrary to your point, there are whole businesses popping up because people are paying for search engines due to users feeling that Google's results are insufficient for serious search. I'm not sure this is a proper comparison.