6 ms·

>you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. This is very much not what "software

by slg 7mo ago

>you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. This is very much not what "software-defined vehicle" means which itself is very much not the same thing as EVs. It's possible to criticize the explotative business practices you mentioned (or bad UI practices like moving everything to a touchscreen instead of physical buttons) without linking them to other issues that have no real relation beyond falling under the general category of "technology". At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. These two things can be true without endorsing automakers who charge and extra fee to activate the seat warmers that already exist in the vehicle.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
maxerickson 7mo ago
How many software recalls did something other than fix a bug or derate something?
- jleyank 7mo ago
  What happens if they screw up the update or a net error occurs? Will this wedge the entertainment system, motor logic or what?
scj 7mo ago
> "At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update..." If an over-the-air patch can have that kind of impact, then what happens if security is compromised and that power is used for ill?
- slg 7mo ago
  When was the last time you worried about someone cutting your brakes? A lot of times these hypothetical fears are disconnected from reality. Security is important, but people generally don't engage in destruction for destruction's sake so improving default safety levels has been a clear net positive for society so far. Maybe I'm being shortshighted and a future security exploit will change that, but it's not something I currently fear as someone whose car gets occasional OTA updates.
  - rjp0008 7mo ago
    Cutting someones breaks requires physical access to the hardware. Changing: if (brakeDepressed()){ engageBrake(); } To: if (brakeDepressed() && currentTime < '5/6/26 4pm EST'){ engageBrake(); } Can be deployed to thousands of vehicles, and would stop brakes from working during peak commute time on the East Coast.
    - slg 7mo ago
      Someone who can write out that code with that specificity should know there are countless technical and procedural ways to help prevent that sort of thing from actually making its way into consumer vehicles (or that OTA updates would be the only avenue to accomplish that). In a properly designed system, the only real fear here is a state-level attack. And I just don't think getting every Honda to crash at 4pm is a vulnerable enough attack vector to make this hypothetical worthy of much thought.
      - bluGill 7mo ago
        State level actors have plenty of money to find any exploit around those protections and some need little incentive. They can hire a spy to cut my break line but their gain is much lower vs the cost. They don't care about me at all anyway except if I'm in a group of 100k people they can get at once.
      - beeflet 7mo ago
        How do you know that a car is the result of a properly designed system before you get behind the wheel (or step in front of it?). >the only real fear here is a state-level attack Why isn't this a valid concern? We should just be fine with russia or china having the ability to remotely hack all of our cars and kill/spy on individuals, even critical members of our leadership? What about our own government? What about some terrorist launching formerly state-level malware from his basement with the help of AI?
metaphor 7mo ago
That's all motherhood and apple pie, but I'm sorry: the reality that we live in and incentives at play are such that if a capability can be exploited, then it will be exploited to the detriment of the consumer. Full stop.
- shnock 7mo ago
  This is a classic example of slippery slope fallacy, and not in the spirit of intellectual curiosity for which this forum exists
  - hnav 7mo ago
    But it's true? How does an automaker that doesn't engage in those tactics compete when the rest of the market does?
    - uniq7 7mo ago
      Like sugar-free, gluten-free, dairy-free, nut-free food, where the lack of something is sold as something positive. I'd love to buy an ad-free, subscription-free, tracking-free, touchscreen-free car.
      - beeflet 7mo ago
        In the future, no one will be rich enough to buy a free car
      - tirant 7mo ago
        Those cars exist but don’t do well in the market. And only when sold by very little money and cheap parts. People demand connectivity, big screens and lots of software.
- slg 7mo ago
  It's interesting how many complaints I see on HN that are framed as if they're complaints about a specific piece of technology when they are really complaints about capitalism. I'm all ears if you want to criticize our entire economic system, but I think it's silly to have that conversation specifically in the context of car software rather than at a societal level.
jtbayly 7mo ago
I’ve never had a software-based danger on my hardware-based vehicles. As such, there is a whole class of recalls that I never needed: all the ones you tell me I’m missing out on.
- AlotOfReading 7mo ago
  I'm impressed that you're daily driving what must be a 30+ year old vehicle. What model? Most enthusiasts have another vehicle to keep the miles down and use when the antique needs maintenance.
  - defrost 7mo ago
    1990 AU Ford Falcon family here - still in near showroom condition (well, looks good but has a scratch and a minor ding) with ~ 600,000 km on the clock. > when the antique needs maintenance. You're talking about all the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, et al cars, tracks and tractors that litter our district? Yeah - there are a lot of them in this part of the world. All the farmers love the bleeding edge gear and are getting into AgBot boom sprayers, etc - but they still can't shake a love of keeping the really old stuff going - pimped up rat-trucks abound and we rebuilt an old Alice Chambers tractor ourselves two years back.
    - AlotOfReading 7mo ago
      "Antique" is a term for any vehicle that meets the local criteria for antique vehicle registration [0], usually older than 25-30 years. Your falcon is in the same club as those older vehicles now. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_vehicle_registration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_vehicle_registration
      - defrost 7mo ago
        > Your falcon is in the same club as those older vehicles now. No, it isn't - you missed: In Australia, the rules for antique vehicle registration vary between states. I am well aware that the vehicle I own and drive is normally registered as a normal vehicle and is not treated as an antique. What we do have, here in W.Australia, is a limited usage "Classics" rego for vehicles 30 years or older. Reduced rates for enforced (but how??) reduced usage: The owners must also be a financial member of a Department of Transport (DoT) approved motoring club. a 1991 Holden Commodore would drop from $867.55 to $171.30 per year Vehicles in the scheme are only able to be driven on public roads for a maximum of 90 days per annum. Classics (not antiques!) are beloved cars kept road ready but only occassionally used on public roads. * https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor-Government/Rolling-30-year-old-vehicle-eligibility-part-of-%242m-Concessions-for-Classics-expansion-20240421 https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor... * https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/concessions/classics https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/concessions/classi...
stinkbeetle 7mo ago
> At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. This doesn't have anything to do with EV vs ICE, but whether it has a over the air updates and whether the problem can be fixed with a software update or not. I expect car recalls are pretty well into the noise in terms of "societal level" problems too aren't they? Even if they were not I expect whole "software defined car" thing, whatever that really means, has not resulted in mechanical defects plummeting, but rather just more software defects. Although it is quite possible EVs have less defects in general than ICE cars I suppose.
neya 7mo ago
> At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. Cite your sources, please > cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. If a "recall" can be fixed via software, doesn't that mean just shitty software to begin with? And that usually happens only when a car is infested with tons of software - proving the exact opposite of why we need less software inside cars?
- cl0ckt0wer 7mo ago
  The dev that has never shipped a bug must file the first cve
- Barrin92 7mo ago
  >Cite your sources, please we need sources for the fact an electric motor, all other things being equal, is better than a combustion engine? If you agree that people in general value the health of their lungs that alone is sufficient reason. It's also becoming quickly a question of geopolitical resilience, running your transport system on dinosaur juice coming from regions where people blow each other up is bad in particular if you happen to be Japanese automaker Honda
  - chii 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - Barrin92 7mo ago
      [flagged]
      - tomhow 7mo ago
        > Conservatives, I assumes this means American modern conservatives, dislike this because they make French postmodernists from the 70s look like evidence based scientists Please don't engage in political battle or post flamebait on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rkagerer 7mo ago
cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment Haed disagree. You've been bamboozled, too. Recalls of any kind are a signal to me the vehicle shipped half-baked. I'd rather have the car with slightly older features that took a little longer to release, but got it right before leaving the factory floor. Or at least the one with sufficient isolation between safety-critical and convenience features that recalls like those you describe are low priority enough to not be urgent.
- hypfer 7mo ago
  Why is this as downvoted as it is? Man. HN. This goddamn platform
  - angry_octet 7mo ago
    Imagine having a car that pulls packages from npm or Docker hub whenever it gets a network connection. If there were cosmic justice that's what many HN users would get.
    - hypfer 7mo ago
      Knowing the HN crowd, they would probably run over some family barely being able to make rent, then whine on the internet for the next 7 years about how much that event affected _them_ and _their_ feelings.
- panick21_ 7mo ago
  The reality is, and this is just a fact that all cars have recalls. And currently there are already lots of recalls that require software. Now you just have to go to the dealship. At best you could argue, maybe the software is better because a bug is more expensive to fix. But that can also lead to low risk bugs not being fixed. Either way, the solution is not to prevent update, but make the cost higher for companies if their software or their update causes anything safety critical to be wrong. Regulation around having a separate update for security critical things might be reasonable on government level. But usually the update is not forced in if its mostly features.
somerandomqaguy 7mo ago
>a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced Maybe? At least in my experience, once the cost of patching buggy software goes down, it typically means that the people become more willing to ship software with more bugs with a fix it later attitude.
- jojobas 7mo ago
  I'd go with "please download this file onto a usb key and run the update when you have a minute" over the car doing anything "automatically".
mook 7mo ago
> At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. Experience with boxed versus updatable software, particularly video games, says otherwise. When it costs a lot for the manufacturer to fix defects, they put more emphasis on not having them in the first place. Otherwise we just just a parade of defects all the time. Even if it's minor things and never fixed, the user can adapt; that's not possible in the face of continuous updates.
- jpfromlondon 7mo ago
  in addition to partially complete on delivery, and "oh that feature is actually really popular, lets paywall it in the next release" and other nerfs.

by slg 7mo ago

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

maxerickson 7mo ago

How many software recalls did something other than fix a bug or derate something?

jleyank 7mo ago
What happens if they screw up the update or a net error occurs? Will this wedge the entertainment system, motor logic or what?

scj 7mo ago

> "At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update..." If an over-the-air patch can have that kind of impact, then what happens if security is compromised and that power is used for ill?

slg 7mo ago
When was the last time you worried about someone cutting your brakes? A lot of times these hypothetical fears are disconnected from reality. Security is important, but people generally don't engage in destruction for destruction's sake so improving default safety levels has been a clear net positive for society so far. Maybe I'm being shortshighted and a future security exploit will change that, but it's not something I currently fear as someone whose car gets occasional OTA updates.
- rjp0008 7mo ago
  Cutting someones breaks requires physical access to the hardware. Changing: if (brakeDepressed()){ engageBrake(); } To: if (brakeDepressed() && currentTime < '5/6/26 4pm EST'){ engageBrake(); } Can be deployed to thousands of vehicles, and would stop brakes from working during peak commute time on the East Coast.
  - slg 7mo ago
    Someone who can write out that code with that specificity should know there are countless technical and procedural ways to help prevent that sort of thing from actually making its way into consumer vehicles (or that OTA updates would be the only avenue to accomplish that). In a properly designed system, the only real fear here is a state-level attack. And I just don't think getting every Honda to crash at 4pm is a vulnerable enough attack vector to make this hypothetical worthy of much thought.
    - bluGill 7mo ago
      State level actors have plenty of money to find any exploit around those protections and some need little incentive. They can hire a spy to cut my break line but their gain is much lower vs the cost. They don't care about me at all anyway except if I'm in a group of 100k people they can get at once.
    - beeflet 7mo ago
      How do you know that a car is the result of a properly designed system before you get behind the wheel (or step in front of it?). >the only real fear here is a state-level attack Why isn't this a valid concern? We should just be fine with russia or china having the ability to remotely hack all of our cars and kill/spy on individuals, even critical members of our leadership? What about our own government? What about some terrorist launching formerly state-level malware from his basement with the help of AI?

metaphor 7mo ago

That's all motherhood and apple pie, but I'm sorry: the reality that we live in and incentives at play are such that if a capability can be exploited, then it will be exploited to the detriment of the consumer. Full stop.

shnock 7mo ago
This is a classic example of slippery slope fallacy, and not in the spirit of intellectual curiosity for which this forum exists
- hnav 7mo ago
  But it's true? How does an automaker that doesn't engage in those tactics compete when the rest of the market does?
  - uniq7 7mo ago
    Like sugar-free, gluten-free, dairy-free, nut-free food, where the lack of something is sold as something positive. I'd love to buy an ad-free, subscription-free, tracking-free, touchscreen-free car.
    - beeflet 7mo ago
      In the future, no one will be rich enough to buy a free car
    - tirant 7mo ago
      Those cars exist but don’t do well in the market. And only when sold by very little money and cheap parts. People demand connectivity, big screens and lots of software.
slg 7mo ago
It's interesting how many complaints I see on HN that are framed as if they're complaints about a specific piece of technology when they are really complaints about capitalism. I'm all ears if you want to criticize our entire economic system, but I think it's silly to have that conversation specifically in the context of car software rather than at a societal level.

jtbayly 7mo ago

I’ve never had a software-based danger on my hardware-based vehicles. As such, there is a whole class of recalls that I never needed: all the ones you tell me I’m missing out on.

AlotOfReading 7mo ago
I'm impressed that you're daily driving what must be a 30+ year old vehicle. What model? Most enthusiasts have another vehicle to keep the miles down and use when the antique needs maintenance.
- defrost 7mo ago
  1990 AU Ford Falcon family here - still in near showroom condition (well, looks good but has a scratch and a minor ding) with ~ 600,000 km on the clock. > when the antique needs maintenance. You're talking about all the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, et al cars, tracks and tractors that litter our district? Yeah - there are a lot of them in this part of the world. All the farmers love the bleeding edge gear and are getting into AgBot boom sprayers, etc - but they still can't shake a love of keeping the really old stuff going - pimped up rat-trucks abound and we rebuilt an old Alice Chambers tractor ourselves two years back.
  - AlotOfReading 7mo ago
    "Antique" is a term for any vehicle that meets the local criteria for antique vehicle registration [0], usually older than 25-30 years. Your falcon is in the same club as those older vehicles now. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_vehicle_registration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antique_vehicle_registration
    - defrost 7mo ago
      > Your falcon is in the same club as those older vehicles now. No, it isn't - you missed: In Australia, the rules for antique vehicle registration vary between states. I am well aware that the vehicle I own and drive is normally registered as a normal vehicle and is not treated as an antique. What we do have, here in W.Australia, is a limited usage "Classics" rego for vehicles 30 years or older. Reduced rates for enforced (but how??) reduced usage: The owners must also be a financial member of a Department of Transport (DoT) approved motoring club. a 1991 Holden Commodore would drop from $867.55 to $171.30 per year Vehicles in the scheme are only able to be driven on public roads for a maximum of 90 days per annum. Classics (not antiques!) are beloved cars kept road ready but only occassionally used on public roads. * https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor-Government/Rolling-30-year-old-vehicle-eligibility-part-of-%242m-Concessions-for-Classics-expansion-20240421 https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/Cook-Labor... * https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/concessions/classics https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/concessions/classi...

stinkbeetle 7mo ago

> At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. This doesn't have anything to do with EV vs ICE, but whether it has a over the air updates and whether the problem can be fixed with a software update or not. I expect car recalls are pretty well into the noise in terms of "societal level" problems too aren't they? Even if they were not I expect whole "software defined car" thing, whatever that really means, has not resulted in mechanical defects plummeting, but rather just more software defects. Although it is quite possible EVs have less defects in general than ICE cars I suppose.

neya 7mo ago

> At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. Cite your sources, please > cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. If a "recall" can be fixed via software, doesn't that mean just shitty software to begin with? And that usually happens only when a car is infested with tons of software - proving the exact opposite of why we need less software inside cars?

cl0ckt0wer 7mo ago
The dev that has never shipped a bug must file the first cve
Barrin92 7mo ago
>Cite your sources, please we need sources for the fact an electric motor, all other things being equal, is better than a combustion engine? If you agree that people in general value the health of their lungs that alone is sufficient reason. It's also becoming quickly a question of geopolitical resilience, running your transport system on dinosaur juice coming from regions where people blow each other up is bad in particular if you happen to be Japanese automaker Honda
- chii 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Barrin92 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - tomhow 7mo ago
      > Conservatives, I assumes this means American modern conservatives, dislike this because they make French postmodernists from the 70s look like evidence based scientists Please don't engage in political battle or post flamebait on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rkagerer 7mo ago

cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment Haed disagree. You've been bamboozled, too. Recalls of any kind are a signal to me the vehicle shipped half-baked. I'd rather have the car with slightly older features that took a little longer to release, but got it right before leaving the factory floor. Or at least the one with sufficient isolation between safety-critical and convenience features that recalls like those you describe are low priority enough to not be urgent.

hypfer 7mo ago
Why is this as downvoted as it is? Man. HN. This goddamn platform
- angry_octet 7mo ago
  Imagine having a car that pulls packages from npm or Docker hub whenever it gets a network connection. If there were cosmic justice that's what many HN users would get.
  - hypfer 7mo ago
    Knowing the HN crowd, they would probably run over some family barely being able to make rent, then whine on the internet for the next 7 years about how much that event affected _them_ and _their_ feelings.
panick21_ 7mo ago
The reality is, and this is just a fact that all cars have recalls. And currently there are already lots of recalls that require software. Now you just have to go to the dealship. At best you could argue, maybe the software is better because a bug is more expensive to fix. But that can also lead to low risk bugs not being fixed. Either way, the solution is not to prevent update, but make the cost higher for companies if their software or their update causes anything safety critical to be wrong. Regulation around having a separate update for security critical things might be reasonable on government level. But usually the update is not forced in if its mostly features.

somerandomqaguy 7mo ago

>a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced Maybe? At least in my experience, once the cost of patching buggy software goes down, it typically means that the people become more willing to ship software with more bugs with a fix it later attitude.

jojobas 7mo ago
I'd go with "please download this file onto a usb key and run the update when you have a minute" over the car doing anything "automatically".

mook 7mo ago

> At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. Experience with boxed versus updatable software, particularly video games, says otherwise. When it costs a lot for the manufacturer to fix defects, they put more emphasis on not having them in the first place. Otherwise we just just a parade of defects all the time. Even if it's minor things and never fixed, the user can adapt; that's not possible in the face of continuous updates.

jpfromlondon 7mo ago
in addition to partially complete on delivery, and "oh that feature is actually really popular, lets paywall it in the next release" and other nerfs.