5 ms·

Zero ZGC4: A Better Graphing Calculator for School and Beyond

36 points by uticus 7mo ago

soumyaskartha 7mo ago
Graphing calculators are one of those markets that barely moved for 30 years because TI had schools locked in. Anything that breaks that is worth paying attention to.
t-3 7mo ago
It's the same price as a "standard" TI graphing calculator, has ugly buttons, and doesn't appear to have any special features in the software to distinguish it from competitors. What exactly is supposed to be better about this?
- jgon 7mo ago
  The standard TI graphing calculator offered to schools is the TI-84 Plus CE, which is generally 140USD and up. This calculator is currently offered for 89USD so you're already immediately incorrect on the pricing. The battery in this one is roughly 50% larger but that doesn't translate to better battery life necessarily. They both allow for programming with Python but this calculator would have to try incredibly hard to be worse at Python that the TI calculator, so I'd probably say it has an edge there too.
  - t-3 7mo ago
    I've always seen TI-84s being advertised for $90-$100 new and often being given away for free as hand-me-downs. Amazon also shows me many models from 90-110.
  - glimshe 7mo ago
    I got my kid's on eBay for $50 during summer break... Looked almost brand new
speedgoose 7mo ago
How does it compares to the NumWorks? Does it have a CAS?
exmadscientist 7mo ago
It doesn't look like it has a CAS (so it's not for mathematicians), and the scientific notation key isn't prominent (so it's not for scientists or engineers), so... who is it for? Part of the thing with the older TI calculators is that they were good for professionals, too, not just students. (My TI-89 is still in intermittently-very-heavy use 30 years later!)
mayoff 7mo ago
When my daughter finally needed one of those godawful monopoly-priced calculators for school, we went to the nearest pawn shop and found a TI 84 Plus, opened, for $40, and a TI 84 Plus CE in its unopened (but roughed up) original packaging for $65.
jared0x90 7mo ago
try page's pre-order link at the top goes to a 404
andyfilms1 7mo ago
Another calculator with no backlit keypad. Am I the only one that wants to use a calculator after the sun goes down?
- uticus 7mo ago
  Are there any with backlit keypads (that are truly purpose-built calculators)? I see this as a nice feature but not a must-have. Not sure if the industry agrees, or if the industry just doesn't know how many people would spring for backlit keypads because none have existed so far.
skywal_l 7mo ago
> USB-C charging—no more scrambling for AAA batteries Bear with me if you’ve already seen this comment, but I dug out my old TI-89 a while ago for some reason, and all I had to do was plug in four AAA batteries and it worked. If it had been fitted with a rechargeable battery, 30 years ago, even assuming it was still functional, I would have needed to recharge it... but with what? Now we have USB-C rechargeable AA/AAA batteries, so there’s really no excuse.
- EvanAnderson 7mo ago
  I haven't seen that comment, but please keep making it every time it's relevant. Non-user-replaceable batteries are terrible. It turns devices into e-waste. I wish device manufacturers would understand that. I wish consumers would understand that.
  - fn-mote 7mo ago
    > I wish device manufacturers would understand that. Device manufacturers want you to buy another one. They understand. Consumers, not so much.
    - EvanAnderson 7mo ago
      Fair enough. I wish consumers understood it and demonstrated that understanding to device manufacturers.
  - projektfu 7mo ago
    Alkaline batteries also create e-waste when they leak and destroy the contacts. Only a few people will be able to repair it. I agree with you, also for things like radios alkalines are great as a battery that stays outside of the radio and is used when you need it, and doesn't leak much charge at all. But e-waste is still a problem.
    - amluto 7mo ago
      NiMH batteries generally don’t leak.
natas 7mo ago
Take a look at Swissmicros' DM42n + DB48x.
- g8425 7mo ago
  Wow these are beautiful machines - thanks for the tip!
fasterik 7mo ago
Is there actually a use case for graphing calculators anymore? Desmos provides a great graphing program for free in a web browser. In any professional capacity you would be using MATLAB, Mathematica, or the scientific Python ecosystem. I mostly remember playing games on my TI-84 in high school. We used it in class maybe once or twice. None of my college classes allowed graphing calculators on tests, so ironically I had to buy a "dumb" calculator even though I owned the fancy one.
- chromacity 7mo ago
  I don't think there was ever a solid use case for graphing calculators in school, at least not in my experience? The curriculum didn't make good use of them and I'm not convinced it could have. There's little value in having every kid in the classroom replicate the same plot of y = sin(x) or whatever on a tiny screen. And other than such demonstrations... what are you gonna do with it? It was never flexible or powerful enough for serious math. You weren't going to run circuit or physics simulations on a TI-89. There are other features that can be useful - scientific notation, symbolic solver, unit conversions, etc - but graphing as such always seemed like a gimmick. I think it's more of a not-entirely-rational appeal to parents: "if my kid has a top-notch calculator for high school / college, maybe they're gonna be better at math". And kids did not object, but in the end, mostly just sideloaded games and horsed around.
  - kergonath 7mo ago
    > You weren't going to run circuit or physics simulations on a TI-89. Well, I wrote a couple of programs that were useful for quite a while. They involved electromagnetism and changing frames of reference. I definitely was able to do quite a lot of Physics with my Ti-89.
harshreality 7mo ago
No approval for AP/IB/SAT/ACT, as far as I can see. No RPN. Every modern graphing calculator needs a mode (doesn't have to be the default) with RPN and a visible (4+ entry) stack. Once people actually learn how to use that for rapid, efficient calculations, they won't go back, but they never learn because all the major calculators don't even offer it as an alternate mode. That's the killer app for "graphing" calculators, because they can show multiple stack entries. RPN may not be useful for math classes, which tend not to have as many problems involving many sequential calculations, but it's extremely valuable for science and engineering.
- jasomill 7mo ago
  Funny you mention that. I had to get special permission to use my HP-15C on a "calculators allowed" exam in a first-year "calculus for non majors" course, and had to show the instructor how to reset its memory. Which I found amusing, because the list of approved calulators included several graphing calculator models with computer algebra systems in ROM sufficient to produce correct answers to every problem on the exam, and they're worried about what I might have stored in the memory of a (then) 15-year old keystroke programmable calculator with a single line, ten digit, seven segment numeric display.
- agiacalone 7mo ago
  Seriously, this. More calculators need RPN. It’s the reason I keep my HP 50G in as pristine condition as possible. If this had RPN, I’d likely purchase one. Without, it’s a pass.
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  Depends on the country, not every country has calculator mafia telling the students what brands are allowed. HP were cool, yet Casio FX tablets with plain BASIC dominated engineering in Portugal, FX-850P were the models we were after.
craftkiller 7mo ago
> without the high price tag. Seems only superficially cheaper than the TI-84 ($89 vs $112)
pjmlp 7mo ago
Zero BASIC feels quite close to Casio's programming language. Now apparently MicroPython has replaced BASIC in most calculators, the issue is that apparently always lags a bit behind, this one appears to still use Python 2.7.
- uticus 7mo ago
  From teardown [0] at 3:50 you can see an ARM7 Cortex M4 @ 240MHz, so BASIC or MicroPython should both be speedy enough for most tasks. But from both the teardown and from another review [1] there are some concerns about the bugs and lack of features in Zero's BASIC and MicroPython. The firmware is updatable, so hopefully Zero irons things out, but still not a good look to have this present in a release. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf_cVGDhYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf_cVGDhYs [1] https://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20941&start=0 https://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20941&start=0
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Thanks!

36 points by uticus 7mo ago

Graphing calculators are one of those markets that barely moved for 30 years because TI had schools locked in. Anything that breaks that is worth paying attention to.

t-3 7mo ago

It's the same price as a "standard" TI graphing calculator, has ugly buttons, and doesn't appear to have any special features in the software to distinguish it from competitors. What exactly is supposed to be better about this?

jgon 7mo ago
The standard TI graphing calculator offered to schools is the TI-84 Plus CE, which is generally 140USD and up. This calculator is currently offered for 89USD so you're already immediately incorrect on the pricing. The battery in this one is roughly 50% larger but that doesn't translate to better battery life necessarily. They both allow for programming with Python but this calculator would have to try incredibly hard to be worse at Python that the TI calculator, so I'd probably say it has an edge there too.
- t-3 7mo ago
  I've always seen TI-84s being advertised for $90-$100 new and often being given away for free as hand-me-downs. Amazon also shows me many models from 90-110.
- glimshe 7mo ago
  I got my kid's on eBay for $50 during summer break... Looked almost brand new

speedgoose 7mo ago

How does it compares to the NumWorks? Does it have a CAS?

exmadscientist 7mo ago

It doesn't look like it has a CAS (so it's not for mathematicians), and the scientific notation key isn't prominent (so it's not for scientists or engineers), so... who is it for? Part of the thing with the older TI calculators is that they were good for professionals, too, not just students. (My TI-89 is still in intermittently-very-heavy use 30 years later!)

mayoff 7mo ago

When my daughter finally needed one of those godawful monopoly-priced calculators for school, we went to the nearest pawn shop and found a TI 84 Plus, opened, for $40, and a TI 84 Plus CE in its unopened (but roughed up) original packaging for $65.

jared0x90 7mo ago

try page's pre-order link at the top goes to a 404

andyfilms1 7mo ago

Another calculator with no backlit keypad. Am I the only one that wants to use a calculator after the sun goes down?

uticus 7mo ago
Are there any with backlit keypads (that are truly purpose-built calculators)? I see this as a nice feature but not a must-have. Not sure if the industry agrees, or if the industry just doesn't know how many people would spring for backlit keypads because none have existed so far.

skywal_l 7mo ago

> USB-C charging—no more scrambling for AAA batteries Bear with me if you’ve already seen this comment, but I dug out my old TI-89 a while ago for some reason, and all I had to do was plug in four AAA batteries and it worked. If it had been fitted with a rechargeable battery, 30 years ago, even assuming it was still functional, I would have needed to recharge it... but with what? Now we have USB-C rechargeable AA/AAA batteries, so there’s really no excuse.

EvanAnderson 7mo ago
I haven't seen that comment, but please keep making it every time it's relevant. Non-user-replaceable batteries are terrible. It turns devices into e-waste. I wish device manufacturers would understand that. I wish consumers would understand that.
- fn-mote 7mo ago
  > I wish device manufacturers would understand that. Device manufacturers want you to buy another one. They understand. Consumers, not so much.
  - EvanAnderson 7mo ago
    Fair enough. I wish consumers understood it and demonstrated that understanding to device manufacturers.
- projektfu 7mo ago
  Alkaline batteries also create e-waste when they leak and destroy the contacts. Only a few people will be able to repair it. I agree with you, also for things like radios alkalines are great as a battery that stays outside of the radio and is used when you need it, and doesn't leak much charge at all. But e-waste is still a problem.
  - amluto 7mo ago
    NiMH batteries generally don’t leak.

natas 7mo ago

Take a look at Swissmicros' DM42n + DB48x.

g8425 7mo ago
Wow these are beautiful machines - thanks for the tip!

fasterik 7mo ago

Is there actually a use case for graphing calculators anymore? Desmos provides a great graphing program for free in a web browser. In any professional capacity you would be using MATLAB, Mathematica, or the scientific Python ecosystem. I mostly remember playing games on my TI-84 in high school. We used it in class maybe once or twice. None of my college classes allowed graphing calculators on tests, so ironically I had to buy a "dumb" calculator even though I owned the fancy one.

chromacity 7mo ago
I don't think there was ever a solid use case for graphing calculators in school, at least not in my experience? The curriculum didn't make good use of them and I'm not convinced it could have. There's little value in having every kid in the classroom replicate the same plot of y = sin(x) or whatever on a tiny screen. And other than such demonstrations... what are you gonna do with it? It was never flexible or powerful enough for serious math. You weren't going to run circuit or physics simulations on a TI-89. There are other features that can be useful - scientific notation, symbolic solver, unit conversions, etc - but graphing as such always seemed like a gimmick. I think it's more of a not-entirely-rational appeal to parents: "if my kid has a top-notch calculator for high school / college, maybe they're gonna be better at math". And kids did not object, but in the end, mostly just sideloaded games and horsed around.
- kergonath 7mo ago
  > You weren't going to run circuit or physics simulations on a TI-89. Well, I wrote a couple of programs that were useful for quite a while. They involved electromagnetism and changing frames of reference. I definitely was able to do quite a lot of Physics with my Ti-89.

harshreality 7mo ago

No approval for AP/IB/SAT/ACT, as far as I can see. No RPN. Every modern graphing calculator needs a mode (doesn't have to be the default) with RPN and a visible (4+ entry) stack. Once people actually learn how to use that for rapid, efficient calculations, they won't go back, but they never learn because all the major calculators don't even offer it as an alternate mode. That's the killer app for "graphing" calculators, because they can show multiple stack entries. RPN may not be useful for math classes, which tend not to have as many problems involving many sequential calculations, but it's extremely valuable for science and engineering.

jasomill 7mo ago
Funny you mention that. I had to get special permission to use my HP-15C on a "calculators allowed" exam in a first-year "calculus for non majors" course, and had to show the instructor how to reset its memory. Which I found amusing, because the list of approved calulators included several graphing calculator models with computer algebra systems in ROM sufficient to produce correct answers to every problem on the exam, and they're worried about what I might have stored in the memory of a (then) 15-year old keystroke programmable calculator with a single line, ten digit, seven segment numeric display.
agiacalone 7mo ago
Seriously, this. More calculators need RPN. It’s the reason I keep my HP 50G in as pristine condition as possible. If this had RPN, I’d likely purchase one. Without, it’s a pass.
pjmlp 7mo ago
Depends on the country, not every country has calculator mafia telling the students what brands are allowed. HP were cool, yet Casio FX tablets with plain BASIC dominated engineering in Portugal, FX-850P were the models we were after.

craftkiller 7mo ago

> without the high price tag. Seems only superficially cheaper than the TI-84 ($89 vs $112)

pjmlp 7mo ago

Zero BASIC feels quite close to Casio's programming language. Now apparently MicroPython has replaced BASIC in most calculators, the issue is that apparently always lags a bit behind, this one appears to still use Python 2.7.

uticus 7mo ago
From teardown [0] at 3:50 you can see an ARM7 Cortex M4 @ 240MHz, so BASIC or MicroPython should both be speedy enough for most tasks. But from both the teardown and from another review [1] there are some concerns about the bugs and lack of features in Zero's BASIC and MicroPython. The firmware is updatable, so hopefully Zero irons things out, but still not a good look to have this present in a release. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf_cVGDhYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf_cVGDhYs [1] https://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20941&start=0 https://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20941&start=0
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  Thanks!