6 ms·

For those of you who haven't had a CPR refresher in a few years, they now heavily promote the use of AED's [Automated external defibrillator]. The prognosis fo

by pdx 14y ago

For those of you who haven't had a CPR refresher in a few years, they now heavily promote the use of AED's [Automated external defibrillator]. The prognosis for recovery after CPR alone is in the single digits and moves well, well into the double digits if supplemented with an AED. Gyms, schools, and works areas should all have a $1000.00 AED onsite. I was surprised that he had to wait for the ambulance to arrive before being defibrillated, since he was in a gym.

grannyg00se 14y ago
What are the legalities involved here? If you attempt to help are you opening yourself up to potential blame and legal action? What about DNR wishes the person may or may not have, or religious beliefs?
- pdx 14y ago
  Nobody wants to live in a world where people find a dying person laying on the floor and let him die because they're afraid of legal issues. The law protects you from such nonsense. Even if it didn't, in my opinion, no person worth a damn would allow that consideration to color their response.
  - Jare 14y ago
    A few months ago there was an incident in China where a young girl was run over by a truck while crossing a street. Nobody stepped in to help, precisely because they were afraid of the legal consequences. The entire thing was recorded on video, and it got a lot of exposure. It was horrific, the kind of thing one wishes you had never seen or heard about. On the other hand, and thankfully this was a much minor event, my wife once got a traffic ticket for moving her car a few meters past a red light in order to make room for an ambulance. Something like that is enough to make you think twice.
    - pdx 14y ago
      I just watched it, after googling for it. As a dad, I'm sick and want to go home and hug my kids. I can't understand how these people lost their humanity, but I've certainly lost mine towards them.
    - apawloski 14y ago
      Can't speak about China, but most states in the US have laws to protect people with the proper training from legal exposure (for example if you're giving proper CPR and break a patient's ribs). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#United_State...
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - philwelch 14y ago
    Counterpoint and proviso: know what the hell you are doing. It's easily possible to do more harm than good if you don't know better. For example, whenever a motorcyclist gets into a crash, people get the bright idea that they need to get the helmet off. No, the helmet is bracing their neck, which may very well be badly injured, so sometimes if you just pull it off, now the guy's a quadriplegic, and since you were just "trying to help", the law shields you from legal responsibility even though you just crippled someone for life.
    - Xylakant 14y ago
      The helmet must be removed for unconscious injured. If the person is fully able to respond you should leave the helmet on unless asked otherwise, but you must remove the helmet when the injured looses consciousness. Not taking the helmet of may have the injured die of blood or puke inhaled or just his tongue blocking respiration. So you're damned if you do and more damned if you don't. Be careful when you remove the helmet, always remove glasses first, open the helmet and pull carefully straight "upwards". Keep the spine straight. Just before you completely remove the helmet use one hand to support the head, so it doesn't bump down. If there's a second person to help, one supports the neck and the other one pulls. Just refresh your first aid class and do the best you can. It's in pretty much all cases better than no first aid.
      - JshWright 14y ago
        Without the means or training to manage the victim's airway, there's no advantage to removing the helmet. Leave it for trained rescuers.
        Xylakant 14y ago
        By the time a trained rescuer arrives, the biker is dead or has massive brain damage from oxygen loss. So whatever you do can only be better than doing nothing.
        crpatino 14y ago
        Better yet, become a trained first responder yourself. And urge your family members and colleagues (and anyone you spend significant amounts of time with) to do so as well.
  - wiradikusuma 14y ago
    I heard from a guy (not Chinese national but married to one) who lives in China saying that in China, don't help anyone having accident on the street. He said there are many cases where when you help, you end up paying the bills because the person (or his/her family) would tell hospital that you cause the accident. Simply because they don't have money. EDIT: He added that if you do want to help, make sure you have witnesses that you're trying to help.
- _delirium 14y ago
  This is the current federal law on the subject: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defibrillator&url=/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00000238---q000-.html http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=... Basically, you are immune from liability unless you either: 1) are a licensed professional acting within the scope of your employment, in which case normal professional liability rules would apply; or 2) do something that a court finds grossly negligent.
  - noonespecial 14y ago
    Unfortunately, it may cost you quite a bit of time and money to convince said court that what you did was not grossly negligent should someone press the issue.
    - chii 14y ago
      No one in their right mind would press the issue, lest it causes a chilling effect on bystanders attempting to help someone in need.
      - noonespecial 14y ago
        Lawsuits and "right mind" seldom are within shouting distance of one another. http://suite101.com/article/good-samaritan-risks-lawsuit---sued-following-rescue-of-victim-a262029 http://suite101.com/article/good-samaritan-risks-lawsuit---s... And just for a twist: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/lawsuit-of-the-day-good-samaritans-sue-woman-they-rescued/ http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/lawsuit-of-the-day-good-samar...
- rmc 14y ago
  I suppose if you think it's better that the person dies than you get sued...
- FireBeyond 14y ago
  Good Samaritan laws cover a layperson attempting to do good (so long as you're not doing something a reasonable person would realize to be actively harmful). In most states, "ignoring" a DNR order is covered similarly. Point of interest: Even as an EMS provider, with a patient who has a valid and active POLST (Physician's Orders on Life Sustaining Treatment - a more detailed DNR, that offers advice on comfort measures, intubation, and the like) - if the family wants heroic measures (CPR, etc), then we are required to do so (though my personal moral and ethical compass has issues with this).
smoyer 14y ago
This is so true ... I lost a cousin at a young age due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy induced cardiac arrest and he could have been saved with an AED (simply restoring a normal rhythm). If you're interested in helping to promote the availability of AEDs in the U.S., check out http://gregaed.org/ http://gregaed.org/. If you do nothing else, learn CPR, artificial respiration and how to use an AED. You don't know who you'll end up helping (and hopefully you'll never use it) but you might also save someone's family a lot of suffering. Thanks!
rmc 14y ago
Remember things like this when people complain about "modern Health and Safety red tape". "Oh we need to have a this and a that and failed out inspection! Get off our back, let me create jobs." This shit saves lives.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- ryanwaggoner 14y ago
  This is the equivalent of "think of the children!" Not everything that supposedly saves lives is worthy of being enshrined into law.
  - 2arrs2ells 14y ago
    But it is worthy of being incentivized. Defibrillators are a public good & a good candidate for a government incentive (or mandate).
- pmorici 14y ago
  So do you practice what you preach and carry one of these with you where ever you go, or in your vehicle? If not then why do you feel the government should impose that on a business? Why not make a law that says every business has to have a trained EMT on site during business hours. I'm sure that would save even more lives...
  - Xylakant 14y ago
    We have that. In germany the Berufsgenossenschaft mandates that every company with more than 2 and up to 20 employees has at least 1 person trained in first aid on site. Companies larger than that need 5% - 10% of the personal trained, depending on what work is done. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfallverh%C3%BCtungsvorschriften http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfallverh%C3%BCtungsvorschrift...
    - pmorici 14y ago
subsystem 14y ago
Definitely, there's really no excuse if you're a company. If nothing else it's a moral booster for the employees. I really wish AEDs would get even cheaper so they became ubiquitous outside of work. In Stockholm there's this system which enables emergence services to send out alerts to people with the proper training and/or equipment in the area of a heart failure. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4740974 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4740974

by pdx 14y ago

grannyg00se 14y ago

What are the legalities involved here? If you attempt to help are you opening yourself up to potential blame and legal action? What about DNR wishes the person may or may not have, or religious beliefs?

pdx 14y ago
Nobody wants to live in a world where people find a dying person laying on the floor and let him die because they're afraid of legal issues. The law protects you from such nonsense. Even if it didn't, in my opinion, no person worth a damn would allow that consideration to color their response.
- Jare 14y ago
  A few months ago there was an incident in China where a young girl was run over by a truck while crossing a street. Nobody stepped in to help, precisely because they were afraid of the legal consequences. The entire thing was recorded on video, and it got a lot of exposure. It was horrific, the kind of thing one wishes you had never seen or heard about. On the other hand, and thankfully this was a much minor event, my wife once got a traffic ticket for moving her car a few meters past a red light in order to make room for an ambulance. Something like that is enough to make you think twice.
  - pdx 14y ago
    I just watched it, after googling for it. As a dad, I'm sick and want to go home and hug my kids. I can't understand how these people lost their humanity, but I've certainly lost mine towards them.
  - apawloski 14y ago
    Can't speak about China, but most states in the US have laws to protect people with the proper training from legal exposure (for example if you're giving proper CPR and break a patient's ribs). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#United_State...
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- philwelch 14y ago
  Counterpoint and proviso: know what the hell you are doing. It's easily possible to do more harm than good if you don't know better. For example, whenever a motorcyclist gets into a crash, people get the bright idea that they need to get the helmet off. No, the helmet is bracing their neck, which may very well be badly injured, so sometimes if you just pull it off, now the guy's a quadriplegic, and since you were just "trying to help", the law shields you from legal responsibility even though you just crippled someone for life.
  - Xylakant 14y ago
    The helmet must be removed for unconscious injured. If the person is fully able to respond you should leave the helmet on unless asked otherwise, but you must remove the helmet when the injured looses consciousness. Not taking the helmet of may have the injured die of blood or puke inhaled or just his tongue blocking respiration. So you're damned if you do and more damned if you don't. Be careful when you remove the helmet, always remove glasses first, open the helmet and pull carefully straight "upwards". Keep the spine straight. Just before you completely remove the helmet use one hand to support the head, so it doesn't bump down. If there's a second person to help, one supports the neck and the other one pulls. Just refresh your first aid class and do the best you can. It's in pretty much all cases better than no first aid.
    - JshWright 14y ago
      Without the means or training to manage the victim's airway, there's no advantage to removing the helmet. Leave it for trained rescuers.
      - Xylakant 14y ago
        By the time a trained rescuer arrives, the biker is dead or has massive brain damage from oxygen loss. So whatever you do can only be better than doing nothing.
      - crpatino 14y ago
        Better yet, become a trained first responder yourself. And urge your family members and colleagues (and anyone you spend significant amounts of time with) to do so as well.
- wiradikusuma 14y ago
  I heard from a guy (not Chinese national but married to one) who lives in China saying that in China, don't help anyone having accident on the street. He said there are many cases where when you help, you end up paying the bills because the person (or his/her family) would tell hospital that you cause the accident. Simply because they don't have money. EDIT: He added that if you do want to help, make sure you have witnesses that you're trying to help.
_delirium 14y ago
This is the current federal law on the subject: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defibrillator&url=/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00000238---q000-.html http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=... Basically, you are immune from liability unless you either: 1) are a licensed professional acting within the scope of your employment, in which case normal professional liability rules would apply; or 2) do something that a court finds grossly negligent.
- noonespecial 14y ago
  Unfortunately, it may cost you quite a bit of time and money to convince said court that what you did was not grossly negligent should someone press the issue.
  - chii 14y ago
    No one in their right mind would press the issue, lest it causes a chilling effect on bystanders attempting to help someone in need.
    - noonespecial 14y ago
      Lawsuits and "right mind" seldom are within shouting distance of one another. http://suite101.com/article/good-samaritan-risks-lawsuit---sued-following-rescue-of-victim-a262029 http://suite101.com/article/good-samaritan-risks-lawsuit---s... And just for a twist: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/lawsuit-of-the-day-good-samaritans-sue-woman-they-rescued/ http://abovethelaw.com/2011/08/lawsuit-of-the-day-good-samar...
rmc 14y ago
I suppose if you think it's better that the person dies than you get sued...
FireBeyond 14y ago
Good Samaritan laws cover a layperson attempting to do good (so long as you're not doing something a reasonable person would realize to be actively harmful). In most states, "ignoring" a DNR order is covered similarly. Point of interest: Even as an EMS provider, with a patient who has a valid and active POLST (Physician's Orders on Life Sustaining Treatment - a more detailed DNR, that offers advice on comfort measures, intubation, and the like) - if the family wants heroic measures (CPR, etc), then we are required to do so (though my personal moral and ethical compass has issues with this).

smoyer 14y ago

This is so true ... I lost a cousin at a young age due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy induced cardiac arrest and he could have been saved with an AED (simply restoring a normal rhythm). If you're interested in helping to promote the availability of AEDs in the U.S., check out http://gregaed.org/ http://gregaed.org/. If you do nothing else, learn CPR, artificial respiration and how to use an AED. You don't know who you'll end up helping (and hopefully you'll never use it) but you might also save someone's family a lot of suffering. Thanks!

rmc 14y ago

Remember things like this when people complain about "modern Health and Safety red tape". "Oh we need to have a this and a that and failed out inspection! Get off our back, let me create jobs." This shit saves lives.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
ryanwaggoner 14y ago
This is the equivalent of "think of the children!" Not everything that supposedly saves lives is worthy of being enshrined into law.
- 2arrs2ells 14y ago
  But it is worthy of being incentivized. Defibrillators are a public good & a good candidate for a government incentive (or mandate).
pmorici 14y ago
So do you practice what you preach and carry one of these with you where ever you go, or in your vehicle? If not then why do you feel the government should impose that on a business? Why not make a law that says every business has to have a trained EMT on site during business hours. I'm sure that would save even more lives...
- Xylakant 14y ago
  We have that. In germany the Berufsgenossenschaft mandates that every company with more than 2 and up to 20 employees has at least 1 person trained in first aid on site. Companies larger than that need 5% - 10% of the personal trained, depending on what work is done. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfallverh%C3%BCtungsvorschriften http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfallverh%C3%BCtungsvorschrift...
  - pmorici 14y ago

subsystem 14y ago

Definitely, there's really no excuse if you're a company. If nothing else it's a moral booster for the employees. I really wish AEDs would get even cheaper so they became ubiquitous outside of work. In Stockholm there's this system which enables emergence services to send out alerts to people with the proper training and/or equipment in the area of a heart failure. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4740974 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4740974